Ash drop

In his vid I would have used a shallower notch. I didnt see the need for the deep one. I like to use wedges even when pulling with a rope. They are a safety incase something were to break. With a smaller diameter tree the deep notch doesnt allow the wedge to work fully with out hitting the hinge unless the hinge is cut out in the center.
 
Notches really depend on what wood you are cutting. Little bit of a difference between species. both pieces that was cut from the man basket would have fell the same way, tips first, but the second got hung up abit which changed the outcome. My .02$
 
I didn't criticize the man's cuts... those that did should have a reason... My point is that there is a knee jerk reaction in this industry to criticize an notch that is not 33% deep or 80% wide... But very few really understand the reason.. Can anyone here give a complete explanation of the 1/3 - 80% rule?

I cut notches anywhere from 5% to 75+% deep, and know why.. Watch the Graeme McMahon video and see if you can figure it out.. its really fairly simple..
 
It's because of the location where urban arborist's do their felling. If your cutting in the forest and directional felling helps getting the wood to the landing it's fine to screw around with different felling techniques. Where we work and the trust the homeowner has placed in us if the best notch isn't enough then we should go to climbing or cranes etc. They don't have time for that with production logging so they make it work quick and dirty. We should be able to charge appropriately to take the time to do it with minimal margin of error.
 
It's not that hard. Take O J for example. I think that Italian was taking steroids to achieve a performance at that level. That was beyond normal human capabilities.
 
That competition was in a controlled felling environment. I am not saying that we cannot learn any technique from logging competitions but caution needs to be used when bringing those techniques into arboriculture.
In that video he was cutting a 15' spar, not a 98' ash tree under heavy tension with decay present. The correct application is as important as the technique.
 
Jeez Linky, I know your choppin at the bit, why don't you tell us how a pro like yourself would have attempted this tree. Or hay better yet show us with perhaps a video. Can't wait to see this.
 
I will admit I did put too much force on the pull line but as far as I can see that was the only fault. This whole thing with the notches is alittle much considering I wasn't trying to pop it over a fence or something.
 
I probably would have climbed the tree. I would have used a shallower open face notch for felling. The reason for the open face notch is to not break the hinge until the tree is closer to the ground giving a little more control. I would have also used a bit less tension.
I avoid using trucks and skid steers to pull stuff over, so maybe I am a bit to conservative to be an urban logger.
 
Why would you climb it when you could drop it? especially with the rot at the bottom. One of 9 trees that day. You'd still be there. Post some video's sometime. Like to see some of your skills. I see video cams out there for less than a hundred bucks so..
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I AM most serious, and you just proved my point.. how long have you been doing tree work?... how much training do you have? .. how many books have you read?.. well there is (SO MUCH) a lot more to how deep or shallow to cut a notch than you wrote ... And even the very idea that you put out has been the subject of heated debate. can you quote sources?? I didn't think so.. do have empirical evidence or personal experimentation to back up (at least in your own mind) your reasoning? So at best you are guessing or just repeating what you've heard.. thus demonstrating that you don't know.[ QUOTE ]


What's it matter how much training I have when every trainer I've talked to has it wrong in your opinion.
I'm just relaying the information that I've been taught and sharing it with the group.
The example I gave I feel is perfectly valid and makes perfect sense. I believe other people have made other valid points about why a shallow notch is ideal as well.
Your explanation with the Graeme McMahon video doesn't explain why you would use 5-75+% notch, since most of the videos I've seen of yours the tree is being pulled with a skid steer.
 
Are you saying this is what you were taught:

"The reason to my understanding for making your hinge 80% the diameter of the tree is to maximize the use of the sapwood, thus relying more on the live outer wood to bend and control the notch as the log falls opposed to relying on the more brittle heartwood."

Where exactly were you taught that????

And what do the rest of you say? ... Norm... Tom... EZ... Is Synioun's reason correct? Surely a BCMA with a mouth like yours EZ should know the answer to this basic question...

ANYBODY?????
 
They do teach, demonstrate and let us practice felling at Olds College. Their claim was more hours of climbing class than anywhere as well. Good course and great instructors. They also did a study of notch performance. I found it and linked it on treebuzz a couple years ago. They did the study when I was there, I wasn't involved as it was third year students and I was first year at the time.

I've also pushed the limits of felling to the point of failure on many occasions. The wind's taken a few sideways, sideload and decay sent a few sideways as well, even a couple overcuts taking out the far side of the hinge. There was always room for a sideways disaster when they occured.

That's how I learned. In skiing there's a couple similar sayings one is "if your not dying your not trying" or "burn and learn". In other words if you haven't had a flop take off sideways you don't know the whole story. Keep thinking the 80% is bunk and you'll know too.

Prior to school I'd been using a chainsaw since I was young and playing with every notch I could dream up. I had tree tops doing dances with step spiral notches and crap like that. I wouldn't think of doing that in someone's yard now because I want the most predictable results.
 
I don't know they didn't have names I was just playing around. I remember I had this top do the craziest spin and fall against the lean using momentum from the spiral notches and the cut that I was finally satisfied. Didn't know about throw weights and a pull rope then.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying this is what you were taught:

"The reason to my understanding for making your hinge 80% the diameter of the tree is to maximize the use of the sapwood, thus relying more on the live outer wood to bend and control the notch as the log falls opposed to relying on the more brittle heartwood."

Where exactly were you taught that????

And what do the rest of you say? ... Norm... Tom... EZ... Is Synioun's reason correct? Surely a BCMA with a mouth like yours EZ should know the answer to this basic question...

ANYBODY?????

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you're not getting. If you have constructive criticism or reasoning beyond a video of a guy cutting deep notches on a spar I'd like to hear it.
I've linked a site with a diagram of a notch to show you that since a tree is round, setting your notch at 80% will maximize the amount sapwood in your hinge. I'm not saying that this is the only reason for setting a notch at 80%, just an advantage.
http://web.extension.illinois.edu/forest...afety/hinge.pdf
 
[ QUOTE ]
They do teach, demonstrate and let us practice felling at Olds College. Their claim was more hours of climbing class than anywhere as well. Good course and great instructors. They also did a study of notch performance. I found it and linked it on treebuzz a couple years ago. They did the study when I was there, I wasn't involved as it was third year students and I was first year at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laurie Newsham published that study in the ISA Prarie chapter newsletter, and it was extremely flawed IMO.. It had nothing to do with the depth of notch, only looked at the effects of a tapered hinge in one species.. His conclusion that the direction of fall cannot be altered by the back cut is BS, and I proved it...
 
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