Acupuncture

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The Tree Free Zone is the forum to discuss non tree related topics on this tree dedicated website.

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You're being dishonest. If you thought this, why do you insist on asking questions unrelated to trees in this thread?
 
Wow. You crazy.
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I should have put it under Training and Health (or whatever the proper title would be. Sorry.

If a Mod would move it to either Training and Health, or TFZ, it would be great.

I think some people tend to stick to the first several catagories, and not necessarily go down so far.


Perhaps it should go under Training and Health and stick to people's experience with it, and the practice in general, rather than people's religious belief's.

I see the religion as completely incompatible with needing scientific proof idea, but it doesn't really help with anything.

Perhaps if those involved would care to carry that part on, the idea can be reformulated and a new thread started, referencing this one as a Health related subject.

Never would have expected the Point to go down the proof of God's existence thing.

Stimulating thread, with a little Needling between Buzzers, though not really General Discussion.
 
There is absolutely NO WAY that GlennButler believes in God. The existence of God has not been proven through rigorous scientific testing.

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I am simply offering a word of caution to young readers who may have, both, back pain and limited cash.

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It is laughable that someone would spend such a large amount of time typing and debating point after point for the sake of 'cautioning young readers' that might get taken advantage of by acupuncture 'quacks.' It is apparent to the casual reader (I just stumbled on this thread) that you have an axe to grind with this particular practice. Your persistence is over the top.

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I'm growing weary of repeating the same rudimentary facts.

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So stop doing it. You sound like a broken record. Of your 46 current posts, 20 are dedicated to this thread. You are right, that is tiring.

-Tom
 
Don't worry about getting any info. Just have your acupuncturist sign up on Tree Buzz and attach some pdf files of the scientific studies that supposedly demonstrate the effectiveness of acupuncture. Don't bring me a study that was published yesterday, it needs to be something that the medical research community has had time to review. Give me adequate time to read and review the study and I'll point out the flaws.
 
tomthetreeman, do you have any evidence for the effectiveness of acupuncture that you would like to offer?

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So stop doing it. You sound like a broken record.

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I suggest you move on to another thread then, perhaps you have something to contribute there.
 
Glenn-

I think that the doctor will have other things to do that TreeBuzz it up. As stimulating as we all think that it is, he probably won't. I'll try to get some additional information for anyone that is interested in it.

You don't seem to be at all open to any possibility that it may have any positive effects. If it is of use to others, great. If not, fine.

As I have said, I am not decided one way or another.




Why do you suppose that the State of Washington allows its employees and other beneficiaries to utilize acupuncture services?




Have you had any experience with it, personally or through people you have known?

Is scientifically validated western medicine the only type to have every actually (not placebo) healed anyone, IYO? If so, why do you think so?

You do seem to be staunchly opposed to anything but scientifically validated healing, unless I am misreading you.
 
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I suggest you move on to another thread then, perhaps you have something to contribute there.

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Ah, yes, there it is... The old "You have the option not to read it" post. Don't suggest what I might and might not do, as I reserve the right to make those choices.

I have no interest in debating the scientific method as it relates to this subject, I merely posted in hopes that you might look at your own posts and reflect on what you are spending so much time and effort on. You tedious, tedious man.
 
This thread caught my eye but for some reason I didn't open it up before tonight.

When I saw the title I kinda figured the gyst of the conversation would go where it has. Not a surprise after being part of arbo discussion forums for about 13-14 years.

Derailing threads is common and mostly unintentional. At some time it works out best to start another thread to keep the original on track.

It seems like some people have had success with acupuncture. Some haven't. I didn't read any responses that said that anyone was hurt...so...what's the damage? There are certainly lots of other places that consumers have mis-spent their money. Have you ever asked for a refund after watching a really crappy movie? How about loosing a bet at the casino? There is LOTS of evidence that gambling is a loosing propostion. This has been scientifically studied and it is legal too.

Lets look at what might be quackery in arborculture. Go and read the 'Deadwooding' thread and see if you don't feel that deadwooding as most arbos practice it might be quackery. heck, there is more brush put on the ground, even by well-intentioned arbos that does trees harm not good. Are we quacks because of this?

Lighten up on the arguements. What is the point? Trying to 'prove' anything in a discussion forum doesn't work.

There are few immutable laws that don't need to be proven.

Electricity goes to ground.
So do falling arbos.
Payday is on Friday.
The boss is a prick.

Care to argue about those or do we need to have a thorough scientific PROOF!?


Hahahhaah!

Back to the regular programming, my rice n' shrimp is ready...mmmmm :)
 
Sean,

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You don't seem to be at all open to any possibility that it may have any positive effects.

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Of course I'm open to that possibility. The effectiveness of acupuncture has simply not been demonstrated.

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Why do you suppose that the State of Washington allows its employees and other beneficiaries to utilize acupuncture services?

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This is the same fallacious argument that banjo made when he appealed to the U.S. military. Appealing to authority does not make the case. Arguments stand or fall on their own merit. Does the state of Washington allow astrologers to sell services? If they do, does that somehow validate astrology?

All you have to do to defeat my argument and persuade me to change my mind is to provide convincing double-blind scientific studies that clearly and unequivocally show the effectiveness of acupuncture.

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Have you had any experience with it, personally or through people you have known?

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Not personally, but I know people who have received it.


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Is scientifically validated western medicine the only type to have every actually (not placebo) healed anyone, IYO? If so, why do you think so?

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Of course not. The second part of your question doesn't make sense to me in light of my answer.

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You do seem to be staunchly opposed to anything but scientifically validated healing, unless I am misreading you.

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(If I sound like a broken record, it's because my detractors here continue to make claims that I've refuted or ask questions that I've answered.) Here is what I'm opposed to: I'm opposed to someone claiming that they KNOW acupuncture to be effective when that has not been demonstrated.
 
tomthetreeman,

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There is absolutely NO WAY that GlennButler believes in God.

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Is this some sort of Jedi mind trick??

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Don't suggest what I might and might not do, as I reserve the right to make those choices.

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So let me get this straight, you know exactly what my unstated theological views are, yet I shouldn't suggest that you ignore this thread and comment elsewhere.

Seriously, find a place you can contribute.
 
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Sean,


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Why do you suppose that the State of Washington allows its employees and other beneficiaries to utilize acupuncture services?

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This is the same fallacious argument that banjo made when he appealed to the U.S. military. Appealing to authority does not make the case. Arguments stand or fall on their own merit. Does the state of Washington allow astrologers to sell services? If they do, does that somehow validate astrology?



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Glenn, this wasn't an argument. It was an information seeking question. I can see how it Might come across as an argument in the form of a question.

I can't say that I believe that the gov't spend money wisely, either, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. Who would?

We shall see what the doctor/ acupuncturist can provide.
 
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Glenn, this wasn't an argument. It was an information seeking question.

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It appeared to me that is was a rhetorical question that implied that acupuncture is officially sanctioned by your state government. I'm not using the word "argument" in any negative sense.

To answer your question

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Why do you suppose that the State of Washington allows its employees and other beneficiaries to utilize acupuncture services?

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Well, I have no idea. Perhaps the individuals that make those decisions have no scientific training. Perhaps acupuncturists have threatened lawsuits if they don't allow it. I can speculate, but I don't know.

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We shall see what the doctor/ acupuncturist can provide.

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They can either provide valid double-blind studies or they cannot. Nothing else will suffice.
 
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Give me adequate time to read and review the study and I'll point out the flaws.

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Well, this conclusion before considering the evidence is a little bit outside the typical rigors of the scientific method, right? Perhaps you were going for irony?

Anyway, I agree that acupuncture is weird and little understood. But so is having hot wax dripped on your genitals . . . but if you watch "Body of Evidence" with Willem Dafoe and Madonna, you might find something in there you like, for no good reason at all. Double-blind or regular blind.

And Tom, I got twenty bucks that says gambling isn't a losing proposition. Willing to lay odds there, too. Bring it.
 
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Give me adequate time to read and review the study and I'll point out the flaws.

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This is 100% subjective. Your scientific method had been proven flawed. I'll take anecdotal conclusions over subjective science any day. Good luck on your quest for your truth Mr. Butler.
 
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There is absolutely NO WAY that GlennButler believes in God.

Is this some sort of Jedi mind trick??

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Actually, it was a joke. I thought it was pretty funny.

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So let me get this straight, you know exactly what my unstated theological views are, yet I shouldn't suggest that you ignore this thread and comment elsewhere.

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Again, you missed the joke.

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Seriously, find a place you can contribute.

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Seriously? Go to my profile and click on 'view all user's posts.' You'll find that other than fun with tree ID and occasional humor, the majority of my posts are helpful and in general, I do contribute to these forums in a positive way. What are you contributing?

Oh, that's right, you're saving young folks from quackery. Keep up the good work, Superman.

-Tom
 
tomthetreeman,

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Again, you missed the joke.

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You're right. I missed the joke. I'm serious when I invoke Star Wars references.

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Seriously? Go to my profile and click on 'view all user's posts.' You'll find that other than fun with tree ID and occasional humor, the majority of my posts are helpful and in general, I do contribute to these forums in a positive way. What are you contributing?

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I'm not interested in your other posts, but I'll take your word for it that you've made positive contributions elsewhere on this site.

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What are you contributing?

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If I write it again will you mumble something about a broken record?

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Oh, that's right, you're saving young folks from quackery. Keep up the good work, Superman.

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Where did I say I was saving anyone from anything? Feel free to quote me.

Either address the issue that Sean began this thread with, which is acupuncture, or I'll ignore you. Sean and I have engaged in a pleasant and respectful discourse. Will you allow us to continue without further indolent attack?
 
The-Archdruid,

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Well, this conclusion before considering the evidence is a little bit outside the typical rigors of the scientific method, right? Perhaps you were going for irony?

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That's a good point, but I'm just writing in a little shorthand. So no, I wasn't going for irony. Here's what I'm saying. I've read papers purporting the effectiveness of acupuncture. They're flawed. If you provide studies that don't have methodological errors, then I will change my mind and accept acupuncture as a known effective treatment. However there is a substantial number of studies that point towards acupuncture providing no effect beyond a placebo.

Is it customary on Tree Buzz for people to comment without reading the whole thread? I'm not saying that's the case with you, it just appears that many of the comments here aren't based on an understanding of the whole thread.
 
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