Acupuncture

[ QUOTE ]
I read your post carefully and multiple times. You mention the connection between the drug industry and the drug lobby. You mention drug advertising. These are important issues that should receive our attention, but they are simply a distraction to the point that (it appears) you agreed to, that there is a lack of scientific data that supports acupuncture as an effective treatment.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seams to me that the big problem with western medicine is that it will assign placebo effect to anything that has a positive effect on a smaller segment of a population, there is no attempt to look into the modality if there is not a large population to profit from a positive outcome.
 
Typing with as much kindness and frankness as I can gather...

Mr. Robinson, (banjo) your earlier posts on this thread lend support for the fraudulent claims of acupuncture. You made bold assertions that I asked you to provide evidence for. You either ignored my questions or, more likely, you are empty-handed and cannot provide that evidence.

That you possess the temerity to attempt the derailment of this thread is nothing less than astonishing. There are plenty of other sites where you can discuss your philosophical musings. Please show some internet etiquette and stick to the topic.
 
This is for you, Butler.....

http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/335.cfm

put that in your pipe and smoke it.....

Accupuncture has helped me recently and in the past. Do I have proof that it works? No. Do I need proof? nope.

By the way, that link of yours leads to critiques of many alternative therapies that are used by many. I've used many myself, and will continue to do so, as well as avoid mainstream medical treatment like the plague.

A bit off topic, but not really. No wonder I have zero respect or trust in drug companies

http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/476.cfm
 
For you Barnett

Before I read the page you linked to, would you care to make a point?



[ QUOTE ]
Accupuncture has helped me recently and in the past. Do I have proof that it works? No. Do I need proof? nope.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, you don't need proof and you share an anecdotal story. What rational conclusion would you like me to draw from this other than what I've already stated?


[ QUOTE ]
A bit off topic, but not really. No wonder I have zero respect or trust in drug companies

[/ QUOTE ]
No. You were right the first time. It really is off topic. Interesting, but off topic. Start a new thread please and maybe I'll discuss it with you there.

Incidentally, I don't own any pipes, perhaps you could loan me one.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Typing with as much kindness and frankness as I can gather...

Mr. Robinson, (banjo) your earlier posts on this thread lend support for the fraudulent claims of acupuncture. You made bold assertions that I asked you to provide evidence for. You either ignored my questions or, more likely, you are empty-handed and cannot provide that evidence.

That you possess the temerity to attempt the derailment of this thread is nothing less than astonishing. There are plenty of other sites where you can discuss your philosophical musings. Please show some internet etiquette and stick to the topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Sir, you and Mr. Vaden are the ones who turned this thread into what it is. It started with a story about someone having success with acupuncture and asking about others experiences with it. You decided to try proving to readers of this thread that acupuncture is "quackery". For whatever reason you have obvious and seemingly specific distaste for acupuncture. Which, is your problem because you are just limiting yourself. So, are you a religious man?

Here is a link.

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/43/5/662

And another
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,485614,00.html

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,164071,00.html

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/266173

I guess you should tell the US military about this quackery.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It started with a story about someone having success with acupuncture

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Do you understand what an anecdotal story is? Do you understand why anecdotal stories are worthless with respect to determining whether or not acupuncture is effective? Apparently you do not and it is equally apparent that you're not interested.

You could show me that you understand this basic principal of science, even if you disagree with said principal. Please, I beg of you, tell me why scientists know that anecdotal stories don't constitute data.

Every reputable scientist knows that anecdotal stories don't constitute data, yet here you are overthrowing the whole field of science. "Anecdotal stories are data, and lots of anecdotal stories are more data!" you bellow over and over and over. Your anemic repetition of this nonsense will never make it true.

In reference to your links (some of which seem to be bad)

Congratulations! You know how to use Google. Before listing a blizzard of web pages to read , would you please take the time to tell me why I SHOULD read these pages. In other words, what point are you trying to make by referencing each page? Please be explicit and tell me exactly what you are referencing in support of your position. Use quotes.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you should tell the US military about this quackery.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you implying that if the U.S. military has a particular program in place, that by default, those programs are correct, true, and effective? Be sure you're familiar with your military history before you answer, otherwise you may be embarrassed.
 
No, and regardless of the rhetoric, I harbor no personal hard feelings towards anyone commenting here. However I am concerned about people who might be misled by the claim that acupuncture is an effective treatment. It's not. If it was effective, you could produce statistically significant data. You cannot.

By all means, sign up an acupuncturist on Tree Buzz and have him/her provide the studies that supposedly show acupuncture to be effective. I'll read them and find the methodological errors. If there are no errors, then the next time my big toe hurts maybe I'll pay someone to stick a toothpick in my thigh.
 
Effectiveness = less pain and more productivity.
I have cured boils, warts and ringworm with techniques that most would call quackery.
Putting clear nail polish on chigger bites has never been studied but it does provide allot of relief.
The list could go on and on.
 
Pstuffel, It appears that, either you have not read this thread or you have not comprehended what I have written.

I'm all for less pain and more productivity, but acupuncture has never been demonstrated to relieve pain. Please provide the science that validates your claim. You cannot.

You may have cured cancer for all I know, but that isn't the topic of the thread, is it?
 
Pstuffel, please do a rain dance today and if it rains tonight, then by your logic and experience, you're a rainmaker. Alternatively you could do a BP Oil Spew Stopping Dance, and if they successfully shut off the flow within a few days, you can apply for a job as the head of the EPA.

Is is not clear that your claims about acupuncture are similar?
 
I have never done a rain dance so I cant speak to its effectiveness. I am sympathetic to your point but it helped me. And!! I know others it has helped. So that is what I can and will speak for. I am thinking about trying it for my nicotine issues because it has shown (maybe not quantified on paper) to have positive results. Now to derail. My brother is your HS Baseball coach. Any connections?
 
I'm glad you're sympathetic to my point. But many of you are making the same common but glaring error. You are confusing correlation with causation. This is a common and well understood fallacy.

I see more ice cream trucks in my neighborhood in June than during January. Should I conclude that the presence of ice cream trucks causes it to be hot?

You have no evidence that acupuncture helped you. All you know is that you paid your money, you received a treatment, and your wrist improved. I understand your experience. I'm glad your condition improved. But how many people received a treatment for their condition but did not improve? How many had their condition worsen? How many people improved without treatment? How many people received a fake treatment and improved? You can't get the answers to these questions without a rigorous study. I hope you understand the importance of obtaining these answers before making unwarranted proclamations.

[ QUOTE ]
I am thinking about trying it for my nicotine issues because it has shown (maybe not quantified on paper) to have positive results.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it hasn't been shown in a scientific study to be effective, then you should be honest and simply admit that you don't know if it is effective.

The only person who will get positive results is the one who takes your money.

[ QUOTE ]
My brother is your HS Baseball coach. Any connections?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not affiliated with any high school so you'll have to be more specific.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Would one of the moderators please move this thread to the Tree Free Zone. It seems to me like its a more appropriate place for this.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that was your thought, I find it puzzling why you didn't make that request earlier, why wait until your sixth post?

I guess the conclusions that can be drawn here are not favorable to your position, hence your desire to sweep this under the "Tree Free Zone" rug.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would one of the moderators please move this thread to the Tree Free Zone. It seems to me like its a more appropriate place for this.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that was your thought, I find it puzzling why you didn't make that request earlier, why wait until your sixth post?

I guess the conclusions that can be drawn here are not favorable to your position, hence your desire to sweep this under the "Tree Free Zone" rug.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Tree Free Zone is the forum to discuss non tree related topics on this tree dedicated website. I didn't say it sooner because I didn't think this would go on as long as it has. It is common for topics to come up in one forum and be moved to the more appropriate forum.
 
banjo, I'm sorry you think I'm rude. But I guess I can understand why. You've been exposed for making claims you cannot support. I'm sorry you're offended.

[ QUOTE ]
So how about it, are you a religious person?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you take your irrelevant questions to the Tree Free Zone where they belong?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom