Acupuncture

This is kind of off topic, Mr. Butler, but kindly read up on Stanley Burzynski and tell me what you think.

If you are capable of thorough research into his history, and can use deductive reasoning, you may see why I bring it up. My point relates to my impressions of mainstream medicine, the FDA, double blind studies, etc.

There just so happens to be a whole world out there of therapies for health, healing, what have you. Modern allopathic medicine is simply one of many. To discount one of the alt. therapies the way you do leads me to believe you likely feel the same way about most or all others. Perhaps you are a Steven Barrett disciple.
 
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I am simply offering a word of caution to young readers who may have, both, back pain and limited cash

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acupuncture is quackery

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Thus, my "Saving kids from quacks" comment.

Feel free to ignore me, I'll do the same for you, and let you get back to your pleasant discourse. One man's pleasant discourse is another man's zealotry I guess.

-Tom
 
Offering a word of caution and saving people are only equivalent in your world. You know this already, so I will assume that you're being dishonest. I will not respond to any of your future comments on this thread.
 
Whastever.....

It's your closemindedness to any modality that doesn't have empirical, concrete evidence of efficacy that moved me to comment.

My advice, stick to what you know, and refrain from calling something quackery when you don't know shi t about it, save for the lack of "proof" that it works....

My guess is, that in the 3000 or however many years accupuncture has been practiced, that many people have experienced healing, or at least relief. Just because a "scientific" study that meets western medicine's parameters hasn't been done is no reason to call it quackery.

Both my previous posts are related to the shortcomings of the mainstream medical profession, and there are many.
 
I have not denied that there are shortcomings in modern medical practice.

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My guess is, that in the 3000 or however many years accupuncture has been practiced, that many people have experienced healing, or at least relief.

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps. My guess is people have had back pain and then recovered without acupuncture. What do you make of that likelihood?

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Just because a "scientific" study that meets western medicine's parameters hasn't been done is no reason to call it quackery.

[/ QUOTE ] We disagree here. References to unblocking the life energy flow (qi) along mysterious meridians in the body by sticking needles in various locations is a load of prescientific bunk. It's magic talk. It's akin to seeing a witch doctor. Do you think the warp drives on the starship Enterprise are real too?

If you practice arboriculture with the same attitude, and you guarantee your clients specific results with treatments that haven't been demonstrated to be effective, then that would make you an arboricultural quack. Are you an arboricultural quack? I'm not saying you are, but I bet there are a few posting here.
 
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I have not denied that there are shortcomings in modern medical practice.

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My guess is, that in the 3000 or however many years accupuncture has been practiced, that many people have experienced healing, or at least relief.

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps. My guess is people have had back pain and then recovered without acupuncture. What do you make of that likelihood?

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Just because a "scientific" study that meets western medicine's parameters hasn't been done is no reason to call it quackery.

[/ QUOTE ] We disagree here. References to unblocking the life energy flow (qi) along mysterious meridians in the body by sticking needles in various locations is a load of prescientific bunk. It's magic talk. It's akin to seeing a witch doctor. Do you think the warp drives on the starship Enterprise are real too?

If you practice arboriculture with the same attitude, and you guarantee your clients specific results with treatments that haven't been demonstrated to be effective, then that would make you an arboricultural quack. Are you an arboricultural quack? I'm not saying you are, but I bet there are a few posting here.

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This thread is starting to remind me of a girls high school locker room.
 
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Do you think the warp drives on the starship Enterprise are real too?



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Back in the early '60s when Gene Roddenberry started to design the 'Star Trek' world he employed physicists and other scientists to help make the ST future. Warp drive does have a basis in physics. Tri-corders and commmunicator type devices aren't uncommon these days.

Is this conversation moving forward or is it stuck in the mud
fight.gif
stage? Let's get back on track or take it off-line or a new thread.
 
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Sean, here is the best short summary I could find that explains that, while I have no reason to discount the sincerity of others in relaying their personal experiences, I don't find them convincing.

I'm sure you're busy, but I hope you'll take time to read this brief and thoughtful article. Let me know what you think.

The Role of Anecdotes in Science-Based Medicine

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Glenn,

I do understand that anecdotes do not hold the same weight as scientific double-blind experimentation. I did read it, and agree with what was said that there can easily be errors attributable to poor recollection, the desire to believe in things, and misplaced causation.

As I have said, I haven't formed an opinion on this.

The acupunturist/ naturopath pointed to outcome-based studies (I believe this is what he called them) that are not double-blind studies. I think that he mentioned looking at Medweb or Medlink (again, I believe one or both of these were named sources of info). I don't know what these are, nor have looked into them, yet.

In time, I'll find some of what he pointed to. He agreed that there are not double-blind studies. He pointed to outcome-based studies as legitimate sources. Again, I haven't looked into these yet, nor am I familiar with outcome-based studies.

Hopefully in time I will.


I am open to things working that have not been proven in double-blind studies.
As an example (possibly not the best), if we were to have to move individual firewood rounds all day across flat ground, I think that we would see that we could more efficiently move a greater number of 10 pound rounds by lifting with good technique and carrying them, than bending over and rolling them. If we had to move individual 100 pound rounds, we could more efficiently move more rounds by rolling them than properly lifting and carrying them.
No double-blind study has been done that proves this, but our anecdotal experience, and extrapolation from our AE, points to this as true.

It would be great to see some people put up some more concrete information about acupuncture, not only their individual experiences. I haven't done this myself. I will try to look into this as the opportunity, hopefully, arises.
 
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Nice. Sexist. Comment. That's a fine addition to this thread. /sarcasm

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What do you mean?? High school girls are known to bicker endlessly. They never know when to trash talk in private.

Unloosen a few of those buttons, seems your a bit uptight.
 
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Unloosen a few of those buttons, seems your a bit uptight.

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Consider it done. You have a nice website, nice looking equipment. I'll have to take a long look at your site before putting ours back up.
 
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