Acupuncture

From what my acupuncturist explained, often people will find relief quickly from and initial treatment, and won't need a follow up for some time, then get more results from the next treatment, and then come back some time in the future for a "tune-up".

I wish I had looked into this approach when I was having wrist issues, during the era of Vitamin I, up to 12 regular 200mg tablets of ibuprofen. Needles hardly hurt, and don't make one's stomach bleed, I don't think.

An interesting part was when he used an herb on the needle that was hot. I think some kind of exothermic reaction (heat producing) occurred the herb that transmitted down the metal needle. It started to get to borderline pain/ burning, so he simply removed them. I could have sworn he had a heat lamp right next to my skin.

For anyone interested, the initial non-insurance naturopathic consultation was $140, and a acupuncture treatment was $70, with a cash discount available for non-insurance having people. This IS covered by State of Washington employee insurance benefits (which I buy into as a spouse). How many bottles of ibuprofen is that? What does that amount to in lost productivity (I work on commission, essentially, as a business owner)?

It seems to be a treat the problem, not the symptom approach.

I'd say, for muscular issues, at the very least, don't knock it until you've tried it.

So far its hard for me to evaluate, because I didn't work yesterday. I'll be in a tree today to brace and cable a previously pruned tree, so I'll have a relatively easy day. I'll see in time if it helps.
 
Amen Mr. Mossball,
I am with others here that certianly dont think a placebo effect (if that is what it is) is a bad thing. I was also taking some heavy meds for my wrist since at the time I was a framer and swinging a hammer all day. Meds worked for the problem but were also habit forming and destroying my intestines. So 2 months of acuu = about $300 and gave me 5 years of relief. Taking medication for 5 years would have cost much more in the long run and just covered up the problem and created more physical problems that could only be solved by taking some other pill.
 
Sean, since your wife is a research scientist, she should have no problem designing or describing double-blind experiments. The web page that I listed describes a double-blind scenario and there are plenty of reputable medical sites that reveal acupuncture for what it is, quackery.

I commented here, not to engage in a debate about medical quackery or the methods of science, but to alert those who may consider spending money on the false promises of medical charlatans. I understand that there are people who claim they have received positive results from acupuncture and those people will continue to spend their money for treatments. Fine. Maybe they were helped by acupuncture, maybe they were helped by the placebo effect, maybe they were helped by some mysterious healing force of nature. Nevertheless, their stories constitute anecdotal information only, and have little scientific value. Currently there does not exist a single clear and unequivocal peer-reviewed scientific study that demonstrates the wild and absurd claims of acupuncturists. Buyer beware. Acupuncture is the scientific equivalent of voodoo and astrology.


To those who would claim that anyone has “faith” in Western medicine, I will say this, the methods of Western science get results. Repeatable, testable, experimentally observable results. It is not my Western scientific bias that allows us to place rovers on Mars, to see billions of light years from Earth, to criss-cross the planet in aircraft, and to defeat micro organisms that create human illness. We can do these things because many Western scientifically trained medical researchers and engineers have a real grasp of physics, chemistry, biology and math. No one needs “faith” in practices that have been scientifically demonstrated.
 
Glenn,

Its an interesting discussion.

I don't think that my wife, Amy, would be able to do it. She is a forest disease researcher, not a medical researcher.


Are there quacks out there. YES, eastern, western, northern, southern, all around the world.

Does acupunture or ibuprofen fix everything? NO.


Does chewing willow bark for pain and inflammation work, even though there may not be a double-blind, peer-reviewed study? Perhaps. I don't have any information about it, either way. Willow bark has the compounds in the the aspirin does (haven't researched this to get the entire scoop, but I believe that this is the case).

Did the world go from flat to basically spherical when the proof was out there?

Did black holes only come into existence when they were proven scientifically to exist?

If you don't mind me asking, are you a full on evolutionist and atheist?

Why so hard against it? Have you ever tried it? What do you make of the stories you have heard from these people that we interact with, who otherwise seem pretty normal (generally speaking, haha).


I was schooled in hard sciences (and some soft sciences a bit) in high school and college. I believe in evidence. Sometimes anecdotal is all you get.

What about psychology, where you often only get case studies for certain disorders, such as multiple-personality disorder. Does this not exist because scientists haven't done control-experiment traumatizing? PTSD? Have people faked these? YES. Have there seemingly been real examples of these?

Your thoughts, please.
 
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Does acupuncture or ibuprofen fix everything?

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Peer-reviewed scientific studies exist that prove the effectiveness of ibuprofen beyond any reasonable doubt. No rigorous studies exist that prove the effectiveness of acupuncture.


You asked many other important and interesting questions, but I think those questions are a distraction from my main point; acupuncture is quackery. I'm not against informed people receiving acupuncture treatments from those who do the pricking. I am simply offering a word of caution to young readers who may have, both, back pain and limited cash. Do your homework. Be informed before you make a decision. Spend your money wisely.

Surely we can all agree on that.
 
Everyone, young and old, should be cautious. Buyer beware. Agreed.

No rigorous studies that I know of prove the effectiveness of acupuncture.


Maybe you would define what you mean by quackery. Is this to say "unproven"? "worthless"?

What do you make of these anecdotes by TB people that have long standing problems, many of which are occupational hazards and some which are not, that did improve with acupuncture after traditional western medicine did not help or help enough? Do you attribute it all to placebo, or just not enough info to make a decision?

I, myself, do not have an option on it yet, as I have done no research, and only have some anecdotal information to work from. I would think that if it is ALL placebo effect, then the western medicines would have had said placebo effect.

We do know that ibuprofen does work well for some things, AND can be hard on the GI tract and kidneys. Who knows how many bottles of it I've bought and used over the years. I don't foresee never using it again. I'm sure that I will at some point, possibly in conjunction with other treatments.

We also know that large pharmaceutical makers are in it for the dollars, as we have seen with minimal testing on such things as Phen-fen, thalidamide, etc. Buyer beware.

It would be interesting to know how much of western medicine is also the effects of placebo effect. Some amount, undoubtedly, and some real effects, undoubtedly.



Everyone need to question the advice of their practitioners, whatever their background is. I would say that nobody has a corner on the best practices.

I had a shoulder injury many years back that nagged me for a long time, until I got some painful massage therapy, which broke up the scar tissues that prevented my shoulder from working in proper alignment, no amount of Vitamin I or chiropractic adjustment, or PT alone was fixing it. The complement of services was what did the job.


An interesting discussion, at any rate.


I'm off to cable and brace.
 
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What do you make of these anecdotes by TB people that have long standing problems, many of which are occupational hazards and some which are not, that did improve with acupuncture after traditional western medicine did not help or help enough?

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I have no reason to disbelieve the anecdotal stories that are being shared by others. But to believe that correlation proves causation is a well known logical fallacy. If I break down in a rain dance and it rains this afternoon, does that make me a rainmaker? Not likely. If five people tell the same rain dance story on Tree Buzz does that make rain dancing a method for causing rain? Nope. If one person says he did a rain dance but it didn't rain immediately afterward, do we remember his story? Usually no. (If you're predisposed to believing in rain dancing) What if it rains tomorrow? Does that count? If you're stricken with confirmation bias it does. Now I assume you don't believe in rain dancing, why? Probably for the same reason I don't accept acupuncture. It really is that simple.

If the claims of acupuncturists could be validated under serious and rigorous scientific controls, then I would accept it as a worthwhile treatment. Acupuncture has not been validated and I regard it as a hoax perpetrated upon the unknowing and perhaps upon those who resolutely enjoy having the wool firmly held over their eyes.

There are plenty of sites on the web that discuss the worthlessness of anecdotal testimony. Anecdotes are notoriously unreliable and are subject to a wide range of cognitive biases.
 
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What do you make of these anecdotes by TB people that have long standing problems, many of which are occupational hazards and some which are not, that did improve with acupuncture after traditional western medicine did not help or help enough?

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Anecdotal on its own, does not mean it works.

Especially if there is little science to back up the practice.

For example, I've burned myself, and got better afterward. I slipped from a second story new construction doorway once before stairs were put in, and flipped. It tweaked me and I actually got rid of prior backpain.

So the anecdotal on its own followed by less pain down the line means diddly to me. Mainly if there is not science to back it. If there is science, that's different.
 
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I would say that nobody has a corner on the best practices.

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Au contraire mon frère, the scientific method has delivered to us the very best medical practices. This is not say, that current medicine cannot be improved, but to the extent that medicine is improved, it will be via the methods of science. As we practice it, science represents our best efforts to know what is true about our world.

For the curious, our word science derives from the Latin "scire" or "to know".

Sean, just to satisfy my own curiosity, what type of establishments are located on either side of your acupuncturist facility? At least locally, I've noticed that they tend to be located next to tanning salons, pawn shops, and SR-22 insurance providers.
 
Mr. Butler and Vaden you seem to have quite an opposition to the very idea of acupuncture. I can only wonder what it is that has caused such an intense distaste for a medical practice that has been practiced with great effect for 3000 years. If a placebo works over and over and over again is it still really a placebo? Or could it be something that our western minds can't or won't accept. The fact is, it works for lots of people. Science is not infallible. I only hope that if you ever have a medical condition that your scientifically proven "western" doc can't solve you will open your mind to the idea that there are many healing methods out there.
 
Oh yeah, you should make friends with at least one pharmacoepidemiologist. When they get a little tipsy and start bitching about work you'll learn a lot about this so called proven medicine. Just sayin'.
 
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Mr. Butler and Vaden you seem to have quite an opposition to the very idea of acupuncture.

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I have no opposition to the idea of acupuncture. I oppose the claim that acupuncture is effective, because no data exists that demonstrates it's effectiveness.


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I can only wonder what it is that has caused such an intense distaste for a medical practice that has been practiced with great effect for 3000 years.

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And where is your evidence for this bold and outrageous claim? Anthropologists everywhere would be eager to know how you have accurate insight into medicine that was practiced three thousand years ago.


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The fact is, it works for lots of people.

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Again, where is your evidence?

Respectfully, I get the feeling you don't really understand the difference between anecdotal stories and scientific testing. Reviewing these concepts before replying might be helpful. I'm growing weary of repeating the same rudimentary facts.
 
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Mr. Butler and Vaden you seem to have quite an opposition to the very idea of acupuncture. I can only wonder what it is that has caused such an intense distaste for a medical practice that has been practiced with great effect for 3000 years. If a placebo works over and over and over again is it still really a placebo? Or could it be something that our western minds can't or won't accept. The fact is, it works for lots of people. Science is not infallible. I only hope that if you ever have a medical condition that your scientifically proven "western" doc can't solve you will open your mind to the idea that there are many healing methods out there.

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You may have interjected an opinion as a substitute for the meaning of our replies.

I basically asked about the science and research behind it. Then others have chimed in one way or the other.

It sounds like you supplanted our questions, or quest for scientifically proven answers, using the faith of others.
 
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Sean, just to satisfy my own curiosity, what type of establishments are located on either side of your acupuncturist facility? At least locally, I've noticed that they tend to be located next to tanning salons, pawn shops, and SR-22 insurance providers.

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http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
ll=47.037874,-122.900695&spn=0.096633,0.220757&t=h&z=12
this is copied from the google maps page, don't know if it will work.
1394 Harrison Av. NW, Olympia, WA 98501.
We couldn't afford to buy a house in this neighborhood.

Interesting that you see them in shady neighborhoods. Sounds like a massage parlor.

The acupuncturist is a Bastyr University graduate in Doctor of Naturopathic medicine, located in the Northwest Center for Natural Medicine. I believe it is a husband/ wife N.D. practice.
In the neighborhood, say within 2 blocks, there is a larger realty group (actually my neighbor's realty group), a larger church, a local chain drive-thru fast food place, a guitar/ instrument shop, a piano shop, a bike shop, a shopping plaza, two banks, a city of Olympia park, a grade school, the local unofficial off-leash dog park at the school, a piano store, middle class residential neighborhood, a dentist, a vet, a casual japanese restaurant, etc.

From the street in front of the office you can see Mount Rainier, large, off in the distance.

I look forward to reading more of the post, but its time to watch a movie with my wife before bed.

I look forward more to relieve of symptoms, hopefully, somehow or other, or multiple combined therapies.
 
I didn't claim they were in shady neighborhoods. I just notice them in local strip malls, next to other strip mall type small businesses.

I'm sympathetic in regards to your pain and I hope you find some relief. But, in my opinion, naturopathy is rife with quackery.

I guess I understand why the masses want to read about magic as opposed to complicated protocols and double-blind studies, but I find it discouraging.
 
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I didn't claim they were in shady neighborhoods. I just notice them in local strip malls, next to other strip mall type small businesses.

I'm sympathetic in regards to your pain and I hope you find some relief. But, in my opinion, naturopathy is rife with quackery.

I guess I understand why the masses want to read about magic as opposed to complicated protocols and double-blind studies, but I find it discouraging.

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I can see them being in small business settings, as in strip malls, though I don't see any correlation between an available business space with public exposure and good/ bad conditions/ practices. You don't sound like you are saying so either.

I think that we can all agree that there is a lack of scientific data to support all the various scenarios in which it has been used, to whatever effects.


I appreciate your sympathy. We have all had pain at some times in our lives. Mine is not really too bad, just a concern about getting worse. I've had much worse pain from tendonitis, and the ibuprofen treatment.

People do want a "magic bullet". Look at all the easy-fixes in our world, such as the magic diets plans that are purporting pills over diet and exercise. "Magic pills" also come from a pharmaceutical industry with a huge lobby, which is driven by money. A funny thing that my English ex-girlfriend commented on was how crazily prevalent advertising is on TV. "Ask your doctor if Product X is right for you." We've all heard this about these magic pills that are supposed to allow you to eat like crap and avoid heartburn, etc, etc.
Our modern, 15 minute (if your lucky) doctor visit, write a few scrips for magic pills, and be on your way, often treats symptoms, not causes.



Causation is a very, very different thing from observation/ anecdotes.





Let's look as some of the simpler things like muscle tension, say a knotted muscle in a person's neck, that is treated in different ways. The modern pharmaceutical industry's bribe-the-doctors-to-use-our-product approach would be to take muscle relaxers and pain numbing medicine. Is the knot in the muscle from lack of muscle relaxers and pain medicine? The Haitian voodoo way would be to drip chicken blood and chant (or something like that). Is the knot from lack of chicken blood? Eastern medicine has a different approach that either of these. You could say, is it for lack of having a needle stuck into a body part? No not that either. The needle approach is to try to uncramp the knotted muscle in its own way.

Eastern medicine does have some crap associated with it, too.
I think that it has more of holistic approach that tries to look at some of the root causes.


Willow bark extract sounds questionable to some. When willow bark extract was put into a powder/ pill form and sold under the brand name Bayer, did that compound do better or worse, or neither?
Another tree extract that is use in naturopathic medicine comes from horse chestnut. You can also buy such extract in a magic pill form from a pharmaceutical manufacturer at a higher price, granted you will get exactly XXX mg per magic pill, and it is exactly one type of molecule that someone has proven to have such and such effects, possibly losing some other beneficial, or detrimental, molecules that occur in the natural forms.
http://www.health911.com/remedies/rem_vari.htm

I think that something that people don't realize very often is that western science never, ever proves anything. Modern western science is set up to disprove hypotheses. We then take from that ideas that we think are true.


In the end, I think that everyone is sympathetic to other people's pains and nobody wants people to suffer needlessly, nor get taken by snake oil salesmen.

Historically, western medicine has had its share of leach-appliers, and 4 Humors advocates. What we do know is that some things seem to be effective, others ineffective, and that we don't know it all.
Modern science repeatedly thinks/ purports to know it all, until more information is uncovered (think about the atom, the particle that can never, ever, ever, ever be split, coming from the ancient Greek word for indivisible, until science realized that sub-atomic particles are seemingly a reality (again, science is always about disproving things)).

Glenn, your point seems to be that you don't want people to be stolen from by charlatans. Admirable. You've been respectful in the discussion, again admirable.

What we can walk away from this with is that we've all shared ideas with the hope of helping other people, in one way or another, and that nobody knows it all.
 
Well said, Sean. And it makes so much more sense to try the least potentially harmful treatment first. I don't give a flying f how many scientifically correct double blind triple blind studies you've done. Many drugs that have been through this supposedly scientific process were later were found to be harmful. Celebrex, anyone?

No one in this thread who has claimed to support acupuncture has said that it and/or other alt meds are the ONLY way to go. Yet Glenn has most definitely implied that it is 100% bogus and that only scientifically researched and "proven" treatments are the way to go.

I have to say, such confidence in all things "scientifically proven" is scary and a bit sad. How many rushed-to-market drugs have we heard about in the last ten years that were shortly thereafter pulled from the market and lawsuits WON against the manufacturers for serious side effects including death? And is there anyone out there who really has no idea how these things are marketed to doctors? You're going to tell me that this is all done purely on the basis of how effective these drugs are? Now THAT deserves an LOL!

I absolutely support proving things as much as possible. I am very much a show-me kind of person. And if I thought there was a chance for acupuncture to be harmful, I would have wanted more proof that it was safe before I first tried it. But it does no harm (I believe that's in the hypocritical oath - sorry- hippocratic oath), and in some cases, for me,IT WORKED. And no, Glenn, NOT because of some placebo effect - see my first post.

And speaking of placebos, what about the scientific studies that have shown previously studied and approved drugs that have since been shown to be no better than placebos?

I totally agree with Glenn's claim that there is a lot of quackery in the alt med world. I think those of us who have supported acupuncture in this thread have been willing to admit that. What I find (again) scary and a bit sad is that there are many who believe that there is no such thievery or fallibility in western medicine.

Here's hoping NONE of us need ANY kind of medical treatment!
Peace out.
 
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And as another writer said, "manual therapy" - and there is NO problem with calling it massage- is absolutely one of the best forms of treatment for muscular issues there can be.



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That was sorta tongue-in-cheek, I have had a few PT's disagree with my assertions that it was so because it can be defined in the dictionary as such. The two major differences are that manual therapy is given by a certified and licensed PT with a degree, where the massage is learned in a certificate course, and the latter pays out much less with insurance codes
smile.gif
 
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I think that we can all agree that there is a lack of scientific data to support all the various scenarios in which it has been used, to whatever effects.

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Yes. That's my main point. There is no data to support the effectiveness of acupuncture to treat anything.


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Causation is a very, very different thing from ...anecdotes.

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Yes.


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I think that something that people don't realize very often is that western science never, ever proves anything. Modern western science is set up to disprove hypotheses. We then take from that ideas that we think are true.

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Yes.


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Willow bark extract sounds questionable to some.

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Okay, so how do we find out if willow bark extract is effective or not? Via scientific studies.


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Historically, western medicine has had its share of leach-appliers, and 4 Humors advocates.

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You're playing word games here and substituting a different definition for Western medicine. Everywhere in my posts Western medicine is defined by the scientific method. I haven't seen studies that show leeching to be effective, therefore I classify it alongside acupuncture. Unproven.


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Modern science repeatedly thinks/ purports to know it all, until more information is uncovered

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This is an outright falsehood. Individuals may claim to have infallible knowledge, modern science has not and does not. Science holds all results as tentative, though some ideas are more tentative than others.

I read your post carefully and multiple times. You mention the connection between the drug industry and the drug lobby. You mention drug advertising. These are important issues that should receive our attention, but they are simply a distraction to the point that (it appears) you agreed to, that there is a lack of scientific data that supports acupuncture as an effective treatment.
 
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Yet Glenn has most definitely implied that it is 100% bogus and that only scientifically researched and "proven" treatments are the way to go.

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texasmossball, don't be dishonest, where did I imply this?

Here's what I have said; acupuncture is quackery. What this means is that medical kooks will take your money and tell you that acupuncture will solve this or that pain. Yet they cannot provide you with the data to support their bold claims.

I absolutely do not believe that scientifically researched treatments are the ONLY effective treatments. Please read what I am saying carefully, I believe that scientifically researched treatments are the only treatments that we currently KNOW to be effective. I hope you can detect the difference in those statements.


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...in some cases, for me,IT WORKED. And no, Glenn, NOT because of some placebo effect - see my first post.

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Wrong. It may have worked, it may not have, you cannot possibly know why your troubles were alleviated or reduced. There are too many variables involved. You may have recovered if you had done nothing.



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What I find (again) scary and a bit sad is that there are many who believe that there is no such thievery or fallibility in western medicine.

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Why do you insist on misrepresenting my position? Please show me where I or anyone else on this post has claimed that Western medicine is infallible, or that there are not thieves amongst us? What I have said repeatedly is that the scientific method is the best tool we have for discovering the truths around us. Scientists make mistakes, no one denies this, but science is self-correcting. Erroneous claims will be found out when others report that they cannot confirm previous claims and observations.

Acupuncture does not pass scientific muster.
 
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