Work is at an all time Low

You can't negotiate if you won't walk away. Bottomline, it hasn't changed because it doesn't have to. You gripe, he says it'll change, you stay, it doesn't. REPEAT. This is the same as being in any toxic relationship. The only way is for you to get out. Put yourself in a different situation. Maybe the money isn't as good or the hours not as flexible but you'll be much, much happier. It'll motivate you to pursue other opportunities.
 
@Steve Connally; I guess the thing I wonder about is if it might be possible to find one good ground guy who doesn't mind working for you part time, and then trying to sell your services to customers directly.

Only doing as much work as you feel comfortable doing as a two-man crew, and only on your schedule. Keeping it small, without having to manage multiple crews. In this way, maybe the fact that you'd be keeping the lion's share of the money that you are charging the customers would mean that you would do as well or better than working for your current employer.

Ideally, if the profits start rolling in, and word of mouth about you spreads, your ground guy might end up doing better, also. If you had a guy you trust, who makes things happen smoothly and efficiently, you might both be better off.

Maybe the hard part is finding the time to do all of this selling and estimating I'm talking about, though.

I would think that figuring out ways to keep operating costs down would be a key aspect of this attempt, but I'm a new guy, and really have no good concept of just how tough it might be to try to sell work.

Tim

P.S. How many $20,000 jobs would you have to sell before you were WAY ahead of the game, as far as your compensation is concerned?
 
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Toomuchsawdust said:
If I were in your shoes, I'd solely market proper pruning and do a couple jobs a week. I've had decent success selling pruning by the hour, and its good money. You'd make more in one day of pruning than 2 days working for those jackasses. And do it your way.
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I'm with you toomuch. I am a muni, but since we have 't had a raise in 9 years, I have to do work on the side to meet bills. Since I do have regulatory responsibilities over tree care companies and since I really don't want to have to invest in the equipment needed to do big removals, I concentrate on phc and quality proper pruning. I have zero competition there. I have had a few good sized jobs atht almost equal my muni salary. Works well for me.
 
TimBr said:
I would think that figuring out ways to keep operating costs down would be a key aspect of this attempt, but I'm a new guy, and really have no good concept of just how tough it might be to try to sell work.
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The key is knowing what your expenses are but not focusing on those. Selling is difficult when you do it right but much more rewarding. Selling value vs. cost plus means a higher return. The focus there is finding the clients who place a high value on proper tree care done by knowledgeable, safe, professionals. Set your price such that you are making money not just paying bills and refuse to budge. If they want a better price then what don't the value? That's the part you don't need to do, like cleaning up. Qualifying your prospects first will help you uncover their value proposition and enable you to sell to that.

As an example, I just finished a job where I have about 6 man hrs in it and a price of $650. No clean up, no chipper, nothing leaves the property. What he values is the ability to safely get the tree on the ground not my ability to clean it all up. He can do that on his own.

Same thing with a larger removal with a price of $2500, everything stayed onsite, 2 guys and I believe we came in at 2o man hours and a chipper rental that was going to cost just under $500 all in. ( due to the machines crappy performance we got it for $100: Bonus!).

I don't work with a lot of clients and I've turned quite a bit of my side jobs into company jobs when it was a better fit with the customers needs and my availability. But, I'm not being called because I'm the best price out there. I'm called because of my attitude and care for the trees and clients' needs.
 
I have people call me on a regular basis and tell me they're looking for the best price I start by telling them were not the cheapest but we are very good at what we do, blah blah blah. Most the time they still want me to come.out and half that time I get the job being more expensive people don't know there are different levels of tree care.
 
treehumper said:
The key is knowing what your expenses are but not focusing on those. Selling is difficult when you do it right but much more rewarding. Selling value vs. cost plus means a higher return. The focus there is finding the clients who place a high value on proper tree care done by knowledgeable, safe, professionals. Set your price such that you are making money not just paying bills and refuse to budge. If they want a better price then what don't the value? That's the part you don't need to do, like cleaning up. Qualifying your prospects first will help you uncover their value proposition and enable you to sell to that.

As an example, I just finished a job where I have about 6 man hrs in it and a price of $650. No clean up, no chipper, nothing leaves the property. What he values is the ability to safely get the tree on the ground not my ability to clean it all up. He can do that on his own.

Same thing with a larger removal with a price of $2500, everything stayed onsite, 2 guys and I believe we came in at 2o man hours and a chipper rental that was going to cost just under $500 all in. ( due to the machines crappy performance we got it for $100: Bonus!).

I don't work with a lot of clients and I've turned quite a bit of my side jobs into company jobs when it was a better fit with the customers needs and my availability. But, I'm not being called because I'm the best price out there. I'm called because of my attitude and care for the trees and clients' needs.
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Words to live by
 
TimBr said:
@Steve Connally; I guess the thing I wonder about is if it might be possible to find one good ground guy who doesn't mind working for you part time, and then trying to sell your services to customers directly.

Only doing as much work as you feel comfortable doing as a two-man crew, and only on your schedule. Keeping it small, without having to manage multiple crews. In this way, maybe the fact that you'd be keeping the lion's share of the money that you are charging the customers would mean that you would do as well or better than working for your current employer.

Ideally, if the profits start rolling in, and word of mouth about you spreads, your ground guy might end up doing better, also. If you had a guy you trust, who makes things happen smoothly and efficiently, you might both be better off.

Maybe the hard part is finding the time to do all of this selling and estimating I'm talking about, though.

I would think that figuring out ways to keep operating costs down would be a key aspect of this attempt, but I'm a new guy, and really have no good concept of just how tough it might be to try to sell work.

Tim

P.S. How many $20,000 jobs would you have to sell before you were WAY ahead of the game, as far as your compensation is concerned?
Click to expand...


They key is time and operating cost but mainly time. I could go out tomorrow and buy what I needed but the thing is you either have to commit to stay small or commit to grow. I've rode that horse before. I prefer not to sell work and have an agreement with someone else to clean up. Things can get ugly when they don't meet my expectations and schedule. (Not you Brendon). My name is ultimately all over the job and if its X tree service that drops the ball it's basically me. I learned that customers want a turn key job. and I either want full responsibility or none. For example, when I subbed out my stumps I had a great guy subbing for me but it was still headache after headache so I started just giving out numbers of a few stumpers and was loosing jobs. They want to write one check and be done with it. Same thing I like. When I get my truck serviced I want to write one check not one to each mechanic. With the sub and referral game I had to have a bullet on the contract releasing me from all liability for damage and cleanup. That makes the customer distrust what I'm selling. I find often employees aren't onboard with your values and then add a sub who sets his own as well. It's too muddy for me.

I did a 14k job in 7 hours for the army corps of engineers and a 10k in 2 days. Those happen few and far between around here. The issue was I had to have equipment I didn't own and that didn't get used on the job there for the duration of the work. The rfp said I had to have a bucket truck. I had to rent one and it came with an operator. That really cut into my budget and profit. If I was to do my own gig it wouldn't be until I retire. There aren't enough days in my week to make it work. I think about it a lot. Small chipper, small chip truck and just do tree care and small removals. 2 guys plus me would be perfect. Just still takes a lot of time out of the tree to run the show!!
 
Well I did it. Finally. I accepted a job with another company as the lead climber on the crane crew!! Hour long interview and great conversation. They've been in the biz for 25 years and the owner has climbed for 30. 7 to 3 job and he didn't blink an eye on my pay. Said 30 wasn't even on his high end for a good climber. Totally happy to work with my schedule. Small crane but that just means small pics. Kinda green crew but the foreman has his stuff together. Ive worked wth him before at my current gig.

He told me I can start asap but I feel like I need to give 2 weeks notice. I'll probably get fired as soon as I give notice but the new guy said if so call him and he'll send me an address to a job site. No more climbing alone. No more of a lot of shit I've dealt with for years.

I've got a lot of anxiety about quitting. I don't know why but I do. It's obvious he could care less about me so why do I feel so obligated to him? Also I wonder if I'll get the money he owes me. $800 and change.

I have a good feeling about the new job but a bad feeling about giving notice. What the hell am I gonna say to him? I'll be glad when it's over. He's gonna go ballistic.
 
Steve Connally said:
Well I did it. Finally. I accepted a job with another company as the lead climber on the crane crew!! Hour long interview and great conversation. They've been in the biz for 25 years and the owner has climbed for 30. 7 to 3 job and he didn't blink an eye on my pay. Said 30 wasn't even on his high end for a good climber. Totally happy to work with my schedule. Small crane but that just means small pics. Kinda green crew but the foreman has his stuff together. Ive worked wth him before at my current gig.

He told me I can start asap but I feel like I need to give 2 weeks notice. I'll probably get fired as soon as I give notice but the new guy said if so call him and he'll send me an address to a job site. No more climbing alone. No more of a lot of shit I've dealt with for years.

I've got a lot of anxiety about quitting. I don't know why but I do. It's obvious he could care less about me so why do I feel so obligated to him? Also I wonder if I'll get the money he owes me. $800 and change.

I have a good feeling about the new job but a bad feeling about giving notice. What the hell am I gonna say to him? I'll be glad when it's over. He's gonna go ballistic.
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Get paid first, unless you want to take him to court. It's already apparent dude doesn't GAF about you. He probably won't pay you if you give him notice.
 
The way you have been treated by your boss, you shouldn't agonize for a second on leaving. Maybe start the conversion by saying you have been offered a job and see if he wants to match it. It surely can't come as a surprise to the guy that you are dissatisfied with your current situation.

Good luck on the new job!
 
Steve Connally said:
Well I did it. Finally. I accepted a job with another company as the lead climber on the crane crew!! Hour long interview and great conversation. They've been in the biz for 25 years and the owner has climbed for 30. 7 to 3 job and he didn't blink an eye on my pay. Said 30 wasn't even on his high end for a good climber. Totally happy to work with my schedule. Small crane but that just means small pics. Kinda green crew but the foreman has his stuff together. Ive worked wth him before at my current gig.

He told me I can start asap but I feel like I need to give 2 weeks notice. I'll probably get fired as soon as I give notice but the new guy said if so call him and he'll send me an address to a job site. No more climbing alone. No more of a lot of shit I've dealt with for years.

I've got a lot of anxiety about quitting. I don't know why but I do. It's obvious he could care less about me so why do I feel so obligated to him? Also I wonder if I'll get the money he owes me. $800 and change.

I have a good feeling about the new job but a bad feeling about giving notice. What the hell am I gonna say to him? I'll be glad when it's over. He's gonna go ballistic.
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Congrats Steve! I'm glad you made the jump my friend.
 
Me too. Even if he offers me more money I plan to tell him it isn't the money. I know I owe him less than nothing but it's just the guy I am. I hate to leave someone hanging or burn bridges. He'll replace me and hopefully never look back. Change is scary and I hope I'm making the rite move. I just finally had enough! some pretty good motivation on this thread from you guys. I guess it just took time to sink in and also the timing was rite. He fired his other climber Friday and I happen to know him fairly well. I know why he was fired and don't forsee the same set of circumstances. Maybe the timing of all this will work out to my advantage. I guess this is the career choice version of the F-it cut. I have reached out to a couple others but they haven't been around as long and I'm not sure the budget could support my pay plus I love crane work. Now I get to do it every day! How cool is that?
 
Congrats Steve! Sounds great all the way around, even if you do loose out on the $800 he owes you. Plus crane work .... DAILY! How awesome is that! I'm so fkn jealous. :D Anyway I hope the new venture is everything you want and then some!
 
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