Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adoption?

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Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Just a straight shooter Marquis. An experienced straight shooter who knows what discrimination causing injury and death smells like.

Thanks for your participation mate.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

the background is "zeroed" so that the camera does not register it. there are numerous ways of accomplishing this.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

I agree that the hard mounted step pads may make it difficult in rough terrain and for 1 man to chip large hand fed limbs and wood (unless he /she is proficient in the use of a winch)however ,it would certainly promote an additional man at the chipper. I believe that the tethered foot controls can be used on rough terrain and positioned at a point that efficiency could be maintained.
We take chipper safety extremely serious within our company and actually have and enforce a 2 man rule for chipping operations.With that being said, I also believe that this is a rule that must become policy at a company level. I would still vote no on it becoming standard simply because I believe it would be a paper lion. Only compliant companys that have and enforce safety standards would recognize the importance .
PS- I understand that this response does not address metal detection.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

My 2c. I run a small chipper - 9 inch.

Im in Australia, so I'm no doubt largely ignorant of your regulatory environment, so wont comment there.

All I will say is that a climber with a crew of one or two groundies and no bucket, when we do removal work it is mostly in back yards as our methods are often uncompetitive with larger operators with height access equipment.

I will only run my chipper when I'm in the tree if I have the chipper within a few yards of the drop zone and two guys to feed it. If I am operating with one groundie then I have him place the material behind the chipper so it can be efficiently chipped by both of us when the available space including the dropzone is full. By that time I want to put my feet on the ground anyway.

I never allow any-one to operate the chipper without some-one else close at hand. I think the two man idea does not mean a massive loss of efficiency and support it.
Do I price myself out of work by operating this way? Probably. Do I have a diary full of work for the next month and a dozen jobs to quote on tomorrow? Yes.

More importantly I think that the lack of engineering solutions in place is a disgrace and a blight on the industry. We like to think that businesses in the third world operate unethically, with way less regard for the lives and welfare of their workers than us. In our case though we are way behind where we should be.

I also think that any reference to a lack of enforcement, or likely lack of compliance, as a way of dismissing proceedural changes or minimum standards helps no-one and just builds on the inertia that keeps this industry much more dangerous than it need be.

Ian
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Thanks so much for your valued insight on this growing problem Hodad.

You're the kind of tree company owner I'd be proud to sub for!

Even drag brush and chip for just to stay in shape to keep a humble perspective that it's a team effort that makes this biz rewarding and profitable for everyone.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

When I worked with a two man crew, climber and groundsman, we stacked brush in a compact and efficient manner for chipping once I hit the ground. It made sense. Now I'm with a 4 man crew where we'll basically work in 2 man teams. Climber with a ropeman, and the chipper and dragger. Generally this keeps 2 guys operating or in close proximity to each other while operating the chippers. We have a Bandit 150 and a 250.

Hodad, I think you're mistaking the lack of enforcement comments. We operate to the spirit of the regs not just the letter. Our climbers wear chainsaw protective pants in the tree not just on the ground along with all other required PPE. It is however a major issue that non-compliance by many of our competitors and fellow tree services out of our market goes on due to a lack of enforcement. I am yet to hear of a company near me that has been visited by OSHA or even after an accident, cited for infractions. There is no consequence for these companies and therefore no motivation to adopt and comply with the rules. The inertia is inherent in the attitudes of the owners and reinforced by employees. When there is a real threat to their bottomline for non-compliance there may then be a change, albeit begrudgingly.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

IRT "There have been no operators dragged through a BC 1000 or 1400 that I'm aware of"
I did a quick search using OSHA and tree chipper. The first fatality listed in the list of 20 or so was from a 12" chipper. Many of these type fatalities were from the victim entering the chipper "FEET FIRST"!!! Does this tell you we need more BS regulations or a thousand more things built into the chipper to try to keep someone from doing something stupid, or do we need workers who follow BASIC safety precautions? Had this not happened to a friend, would you look at it the same? No offense but you sound like one of the mothers (who lost a child) on a campaign against drunk drivers, and to be honest, I might very well be right there with you if I had lost a good friend that way. I voted NO, and I do use a 20" WTC daily, without a two man rule.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Please provide a link to the incidents you're speaking of Panama.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

It's not hard to do Panama.


http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/ca/08CA005.html

Note that the hydraulically fed Morbark Model 12 chipper involved in this fatality has a 12X18 inch opening into the business section that does the chipping, the mandrel drum with its knives.

A two man minimum rule could have saved this man's life. Hence the number one listed OSHA recommendation to prevent this type of tragedy from happening.

The dead treeworker in this incident had 16 years of tree service experience.

The Model 12 Morbark in this incident had last chance pull cords in the in feed chute.

If safe operation was simply a matter of training and proper feeding procedure being followed?

Why did Morbark build this chipper with last chance in chute pull cords?

Because even veteran chipper operators are prone to mistakes just like the rest of us are.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

[ QUOTE ]
If you have had three guys almost go through chippers, you don't need a new regulation, you need a better safety program. You shouldn't be counting on a second guy to save the first, you should be working to eliminate the unsafe practices that got the first guy in trouble.

I am done the horse has been beaten to glue.

I stand behind TCIAs position on a blanket 2 man rule

[/ QUOTE ]

icon14.gif
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Of course the 2 man rule would work really good if the second man could smack the first in the back of the head when they went to do something wrong. That way they wouldn't have to try to get to the safety stop.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Then answer the question Peter G. and Marquis can't or won't?

Why don't they staunchly support allowing climbers to work alone, the same way they're advocating letting chipper operators to work alone?

Are they not both treeworkers performing dangerous tasks on the job?

What gives with the discriminatory double standard?

Answer the question. Any of yu?

What kinda professionals are yu?

You bend over backwards to protect climbers who make mistakes on the job.

Then turn right around and bend over backwards to screw over the chipper operators on the same dang job.

One can't be left alone. But the other can?

Tell it to an impartial judge in court and see how far that pretzel logic gets yu?

Won't catch me subbing for any of yu.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Climbers in a tree are not always visible to people on the ground. Another person on the ground can better observe people nearing the work zone....chipper usually obvious to others, but 1 operator can observe the work zone easily by themselves.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

If there were a 2 person minimum rule...what credentials would they need?
Would they need to be certified, licensed or qualified individuals. Just saying 2 people does not fix the problem.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Then what the heck is aerial rescue training for Allmark?

Aren't climbers prone to making mistakes like chipper operators in your world?

It's nothing less than an industry endorsement of discrimination against chipper operators period.

And you Marquis and Peter G are leading the pack.

Congratulations guys.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

[ QUOTE ]
If there were a 2 person minimum rule...what credentials would they need?
Would they need to be certified, licensed or qualified individuals. Just saying 2 people does not fix the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why is having two men in close proximity to the chipper OSHA's number one recommendation to help prevent these accidents?

Is ignoring OSHA a cherished aspect of our industry?

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Aerial rescue training is for rescuing an distressed climber. Where in the regulations does it state the second person has to be a climber or trained in AR.

Climbers make mistakes but they cant all be regulated.

I don't discriminate against anyone. I promote and practice safety. I do lead the pack by feeding the chipper from the side and not using my foot to feed things along with many other practices. I lead by example.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

So you believe in rescuing a distressed climber. Train for it. Attend jamborees, TCC's featuring it prominently. Get ISA certifications proving your qualifications to do it.

Yet you balk at having a second groundie around to at least try and save a distressed chipper operator?

You don't consider that discriminatory mate?

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

I don't balk at a second groundie. It is a great idea in many situations. I just don't think it should be a requirement.
 
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