Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adoption?
- Thread starter jomoco
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Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
How much hands on prototyping experience have you got Pelorus?
What do you think the hourly rate for a certified mechanical engineer is? What about an electrical engineer?
jomoco
How much hands on prototyping experience have you got Pelorus?
What do you think the hourly rate for a certified mechanical engineer is? What about an electrical engineer?
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Did your proposed prototype include the whole, whole tree chipper, Jomoco? Or, just a modified infeed chute / feed rollers / metal detector, coupled to a hydraulic/ electrical power source.
You seem to have tried to use emotional blackmail (we gotta prevent workers from getting eaten alive) to get the NAA bankroll electrical and mechanical engineers.
Did your proposed prototype include the whole, whole tree chipper, Jomoco? Or, just a modified infeed chute / feed rollers / metal detector, coupled to a hydraulic/ electrical power source.
You seem to have tried to use emotional blackmail (we gotta prevent workers from getting eaten alive) to get the NAA bankroll electrical and mechanical engineers.
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
There are any myriad of ways individuals can get maimed or killed in this industry. Your two man minimum rule crusade is starting to get tired, IMO.
A company wanting to utilize the production advantage of a monster chipper should not be relying on an individual to feed it by hand. That kinda defeats the whole purpose of The Industrial Revolution. I can get plenty tired enough after a couple of hours of hand feeding my 6" chipper.
There are any myriad of ways individuals can get maimed or killed in this industry. Your two man minimum rule crusade is starting to get tired, IMO.
A company wanting to utilize the production advantage of a monster chipper should not be relying on an individual to feed it by hand. That kinda defeats the whole purpose of The Industrial Revolution. I can get plenty tired enough after a couple of hours of hand feeding my 6" chipper.
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
[ QUOTE ]
How much hands on prototyping experience have you got Pelorus?
I like mechanical tinkering, Jomoco, but I don't expect others to subscribe to, and pay for my grandiose dreams.
What do you think the hourly rate for a certified mechanical engineer is? What about an electrical engineer?
Likely less than the hourly rate you or I can earn on a technical tree removal.
jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much hands on prototyping experience have you got Pelorus?
I like mechanical tinkering, Jomoco, but I don't expect others to subscribe to, and pay for my grandiose dreams.
What do you think the hourly rate for a certified mechanical engineer is? What about an electrical engineer?
Likely less than the hourly rate you or I can earn on a technical tree removal.
jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Yes, I see your point. 150k is a little steep to save 50 treeworkers lives.
I mean that works out to three grand each!
jomoco
Yes, I see your point. 150k is a little steep to save 50 treeworkers lives.
I mean that works out to three grand each!
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
[ QUOTE ]
I like mechanical tinkering, Jomoco, but I don't expect others to subscribe to, and pay for my grandiose dreams.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah silly me.
Thinking a metal detector used daily by one industry would save lives in another?
http://www.sesotec.us/en/profiler/produc...ment/lignum-hx/
jomoco
[ QUOTE ]
I like mechanical tinkering, Jomoco, but I don't expect others to subscribe to, and pay for my grandiose dreams.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah silly me.
Thinking a metal detector used daily by one industry would save lives in another?
http://www.sesotec.us/en/profiler/produc...ment/lignum-hx/
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
I mean industrial sawmill blades are so expensive.
And the down time when one is damaged drains so much profitability from the mill.
Whereas treeworkers?
A dime a dozen, right?
jomoco
I mean industrial sawmill blades are so expensive.
And the down time when one is damaged drains so much profitability from the mill.
Whereas treeworkers?
A dime a dozen, right?
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Buriladores de madera es muy peligroso. Hacerlo con seguridad deben llevar todo el equipo de seguridad emitido a su nombre. Alimentar a las ramas en y rápidamente se mueven hacia el avance de la mesa y usted estará seguro. ¿Está bien?
jomoco
Buriladores de madera es muy peligroso. Hacerlo con seguridad deben llevar todo el equipo de seguridad emitido a su nombre. Alimentar a las ramas en y rápidamente se mueven hacia el avance de la mesa y usted estará seguro. ¿Está bien?
jomoco
RyanCafferky
Been here a while
- Location
- Hood River, Oregon
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Jomoco-
The way that you have stood on your high horse and railed against every comment that doesn't fully tow your party line of the two man rule makes it hard to want to comment and keep this thread going and you riding your dead high horse. I agree that two people running chippers is a good idea and it would likely be a good idea to have that as a "rule".
Like others have said though, rules are made to be broken and will be by a myriad of companies out there that will never own a chipper with a fancy piece of equipment that keeps people from going through the feed wheels. What is the incentive for chipper manufacturers to make their machines safer? Do they get any compensation for that? No. They are corporations and as such have no obligation to society and only to their shareholders that they answer to.
This discussion just highlights many societal issues. Gutting of regulatory agencies that could provide true safety for workers, a lack of concern for the common worker (the poor), corporate structure and societal responsibility by corporations or the lack there of. Solve those little problems and your rules might actually get adopted.
In my entire tree career of 16 years, I have met one OSHA inspector. That was only because we were un/fortunate enough to be working down the street from a prevailing wage job that he was inspecting. If there was more proactive work done by regulators and safety inspectors, that would prevent more accidents than another rule that would not be followed.
Your list of rules about how to run chippers can grow and I guarantee that the list of names that go through chippers would continue to grow as well.
Jomoco-
The way that you have stood on your high horse and railed against every comment that doesn't fully tow your party line of the two man rule makes it hard to want to comment and keep this thread going and you riding your dead high horse. I agree that two people running chippers is a good idea and it would likely be a good idea to have that as a "rule".
Like others have said though, rules are made to be broken and will be by a myriad of companies out there that will never own a chipper with a fancy piece of equipment that keeps people from going through the feed wheels. What is the incentive for chipper manufacturers to make their machines safer? Do they get any compensation for that? No. They are corporations and as such have no obligation to society and only to their shareholders that they answer to.
This discussion just highlights many societal issues. Gutting of regulatory agencies that could provide true safety for workers, a lack of concern for the common worker (the poor), corporate structure and societal responsibility by corporations or the lack there of. Solve those little problems and your rules might actually get adopted.
In my entire tree career of 16 years, I have met one OSHA inspector. That was only because we were un/fortunate enough to be working down the street from a prevailing wage job that he was inspecting. If there was more proactive work done by regulators and safety inspectors, that would prevent more accidents than another rule that would not be followed.
Your list of rules about how to run chippers can grow and I guarantee that the list of names that go through chippers would continue to grow as well.
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Tell me Ryan, why do you think modern sawmills voluntarily adopted an in house rule that every log milled in their facilities must first go through a metal detector?
Why do you think even small sawmills pay employees to check logs for metal contamination with hand held detectors prior to milling them?
What do you think the likelihood is that the logs we run through large capacity chippers might contain unseen embedded eyebolts used in cabling?
jomoco
Tell me Ryan, why do you think modern sawmills voluntarily adopted an in house rule that every log milled in their facilities must first go through a metal detector?
Why do you think even small sawmills pay employees to check logs for metal contamination with hand held detectors prior to milling them?
What do you think the likelihood is that the logs we run through large capacity chippers might contain unseen embedded eyebolts used in cabling?
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
[ QUOTE ]
Like others have said though, rules are made to be broken and will be by a myriad of companies out there that will never own a chipper with a fancy piece of equipment that keeps people from going through the feed wheels. What is the incentive for chipper manufacturers to make their machines safer? Do they get any compensation for that? No. They are corporations and as such have no obligation to society and only to their shareholders that they answer to.
[/ QUOTE ]
What's the incentive? They are numerous. Improved reputations both public and private by not having their chippers eat their operators alive. Far less attorney and court costs defending themselves each time an operator is killed and their family files lawsuits against them. Increased sales and profits due to selling a superior and safer product than those currently on the market sold by their competitors.
Do they get compensated for selling safer chippers? Yes, undoubtedly.
I distinctly remember speaking on the phone with the head of CalTrans' tree maintenance division about the Chipper Safety Gate's potential benefit for them. He said he'd gladly pay 10K more per chipper if that chipper could just keep scoop shovels and pitch forks from going through them because of the down time and repair costs to the state each year using their current chipper models.
Kinda like the sawmills rationale for using metal detectors huh?
jomoco
[ QUOTE ]
Like others have said though, rules are made to be broken and will be by a myriad of companies out there that will never own a chipper with a fancy piece of equipment that keeps people from going through the feed wheels. What is the incentive for chipper manufacturers to make their machines safer? Do they get any compensation for that? No. They are corporations and as such have no obligation to society and only to their shareholders that they answer to.
[/ QUOTE ]
What's the incentive? They are numerous. Improved reputations both public and private by not having their chippers eat their operators alive. Far less attorney and court costs defending themselves each time an operator is killed and their family files lawsuits against them. Increased sales and profits due to selling a superior and safer product than those currently on the market sold by their competitors.
Do they get compensated for selling safer chippers? Yes, undoubtedly.
I distinctly remember speaking on the phone with the head of CalTrans' tree maintenance division about the Chipper Safety Gate's potential benefit for them. He said he'd gladly pay 10K more per chipper if that chipper could just keep scoop shovels and pitch forks from going through them because of the down time and repair costs to the state each year using their current chipper models.
Kinda like the sawmills rationale for using metal detectors huh?
jomoco
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
In the world of production it is all about uptime (or minimizing downtime). That is what CalTrans was interested in, oh and safety for workers a distant second.
For manufacturers of equipment it is about risk management, by which I mean risk of exposure to liability. They run the numbers and if the cost of the improvement outweighs the cost of the attorneys and the ensuing lawsuits then guess what happens? Do some market research Jomoco. What is the downtime cost for those chippers where things other than wood go through them? This would include but not be limited to the operator. Then show how the addition of this device will give the end user an ROI and the manufacturer a value add feature to their machines.
Unfortunately, you need to be bloody-minded in order to win over the corporate world.
In the world of production it is all about uptime (or minimizing downtime). That is what CalTrans was interested in, oh and safety for workers a distant second.
For manufacturers of equipment it is about risk management, by which I mean risk of exposure to liability. They run the numbers and if the cost of the improvement outweighs the cost of the attorneys and the ensuing lawsuits then guess what happens? Do some market research Jomoco. What is the downtime cost for those chippers where things other than wood go through them? This would include but not be limited to the operator. Then show how the addition of this device will give the end user an ROI and the manufacturer a value add feature to their machines.
Unfortunately, you need to be bloody-minded in order to win over the corporate world.
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Not all Tree industry leaders were unsympathetic to my grandiose quest to make this industry a little safer for chipper operators on the job at the time.
jomoco
Not all Tree industry leaders were unsympathetic to my grandiose quest to make this industry a little safer for chipper operators on the job at the time.
jomoco
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Interesting. They donated a product in the hopes that it would lead to more sales and the penetration of a market. That's marketing 101. Your letter goes to my very point, though there may have been a spreadsheet or cost analysis attached to it that we don't see here. Was there? In any pitch I've made for financing of anything the bottomline was always, show me the numbers.
Have you ever watch "Shark Tank" or Dragon's Den (Canadian version)? That'll give you a very clear demonstration of how venture capitalists and angel investors think.
Interesting. They donated a product in the hopes that it would lead to more sales and the penetration of a market. That's marketing 101. Your letter goes to my very point, though there may have been a spreadsheet or cost analysis attached to it that we don't see here. Was there? In any pitch I've made for financing of anything the bottomline was always, show me the numbers.
Have you ever watch "Shark Tank" or Dragon's Den (Canadian version)? That'll give you a very clear demonstration of how venture capitalists and angel investors think.
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
I take your point TH.
Needless to say, it's not currently in this project's best interests of success in actually getting a WTC two man minimum rule enacted through the ANSI committee, to reveal my entire arsenal of evidence being compiled to help sway their decision in favor of adopting such a rule.
But one of the reasons this poll will I hope remain open for a little less than one year now.
It's been 16 years of failure so far. I hope to do a far more thorough and convincing job this year to actually achieve my modest goal of a two man minimum rule for WTC operations in this industry.
Thanks for participating TH.
jomoco
I take your point TH.
Needless to say, it's not currently in this project's best interests of success in actually getting a WTC two man minimum rule enacted through the ANSI committee, to reveal my entire arsenal of evidence being compiled to help sway their decision in favor of adopting such a rule.
But one of the reasons this poll will I hope remain open for a little less than one year now.
It's been 16 years of failure so far. I hope to do a far more thorough and convincing job this year to actually achieve my modest goal of a two man minimum rule for WTC operations in this industry.
Thanks for participating TH.
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Don't worry Pelorus, OSHA has no jurisdiction in Canada.
However Work Safe British Columbia might?
jomoco
Don't worry Pelorus, OSHA has no jurisdiction in Canada.
However Work Safe British Columbia might?
jomoco
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
btw, Jomoco, I worked as a debarker / loader operator at a local sawmill for a couple of years before getting into treework full time. No metal detector other than a portable unit which got used a handful of times a year.
The owner (smart and shrewd businessman) would not buy logs which had a residential pedigree.
btw, Jomoco, I worked as a debarker / loader operator at a local sawmill for a couple of years before getting into treework full time. No metal detector other than a portable unit which got used a handful of times a year.
The owner (smart and shrewd businessman) would not buy logs which had a residential pedigree.
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti
Seems to me you've simply confirmed the very real danger of running residentially obtained tree lumber through large capacity chippers without metal detectors.
Thanks for your objective honesty on this treeworker safety matter Pelorus.
I appreciate your participation mate.
jomoco
Seems to me you've simply confirmed the very real danger of running residentially obtained tree lumber through large capacity chippers without metal detectors.
Thanks for your objective honesty on this treeworker safety matter Pelorus.
I appreciate your participation mate.
jomoco
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