Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adoption?

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Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Go back to the very first post and read it carefully please.

For the purposes of this thread/poll a WTC will be defined as any hydraulic roller fed chipper larger than a 14 inch capacity designed to be hand fed by the operators.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Crews feeding WTC mechanically, crane, grapple, bobcat, what ever, would be unaffected by this proposed rule.

Only solo hand feeding of a WTC chipper would be prohibited.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

This 'rule' will never be implemented. If it is, as J proposes, I'll buy everyone who participates in this thread a beer at Expo when it is implemented.

Do you want to know why it will never happen?

J proposes setting a 'high' threshold for the 'rule'. Only large chippers that are manually fed. Rules like this are terrible and regulators look at the threshold and ask, 'Why not lower the threshold? What is the 'magic' of that level?'

Sometimes there is justification. Speed limits, vehicle GVW. The threshold is based on some sound, logical and most important, defensible, reason.

Regulators would all ask, 'Why do you want to use such and such dimensions and equipment..ie. manual feed/'

Any sort of two person rule would only be implemented if it was for ALL chippers. Otherwise, the regulators and, more importantly, attorneys, will say...'Why not smaller?'

If a person could get killed/injured by a chipper then the 'rule' would have to apply? If not, wellll...we all are aware of how product liability claims can get out of control!

I think my bet is safe.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

I think the certified crane operators regulations are clear precedent that increased equipment capacities clearly demand two qualified operators on the job site working together for compliance with safe operations in both OSHA's and the crane companies' eyes today.

Equipment capacity exceeds X amount? You shall have two operators on the job site for safe operations.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Again...apples and antelopes.

You're thinking like an end-user...what you're not thinking about is how an attorney, even one that isn't too brilliant, could make a case that...if such dimension is the threshold, why doesn't it apply to ALL chippers?

YOU could NOT come up with a defense that a judge or attorney belief.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

I think they'd believe that Morbark put those last chance panick handles inside their big chipper's feed chutes for a dang good reason.

And I further think every reasonable minded jurist would see that as irrefutable and self evident proof that the manufacturers themselves are acutely aware of just how dangerous their big chippers truly are.

By not meeting each other half way and establish that cut off point between safely solo fed small chippers, and un safely hand fed big chippers?

We'll end up getting the very blanket all chipper rule we all dread for being so macho stubborn bout my chipper operators never making mistakes!

When there's clear tangible evidence that they sometimes do.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

The last chancers have always seem to me to be 'something is [barely] better than nothing' acknowledgement of the issue. No operator that I've ever talked about ever really believed that they'd have a chance to save themselves by yanking the cable. such a slime chance at least...better than nothing...

What the cables have done is create a symbol or attention-grabbing reminder to 'STAY AWAY!'

Years ago I suggested to all the chipper manufacturers at Expo that they should use red/white diagonal striping on the insides of all chutes. Make the danger zone very visible and an easy reminder where not to put body parts.

If I ever buy a chipper again I'll do that...oh...and continue to train and enforce proper chipping practices.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

[ QUOTE ]
I think they'd believe that Morbark put those last chance panick handles inside their big chipper's feed chutes for a dang good reason.

And I further think every reasonable minded jurist would see that as irrefutable and self evident proof that the manufacturers themselves are acutely aware of just how dangerous their big chippers truly are.

By not meeting each other half way and establish that cut off point between safely solo fed small chippers, and un safely hand fed big chippers?

We'll end up getting the very blanket all chipper rule we all dread for being so macho stubborn bout my chipper operators never making mistakes!

When there's clear tangible evidence that they sometimes do.

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmmm I just looked at Morbark and Bandit web sites. Your are right, they do have last chance pull cords on their chippers

All the way down to their smallest 6" chippers...there goes your theory.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

No, there goes your theory that chipper operators don't make enough mistakes to justify another in chute last chance device?

Like say a second operator who can still react to save the life of an incapacitated and trapped fellow worker?

Might even be at the top of the list of wise folks nation wide?

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Was talking about your theory of juries only going after wtc, because of last chance cords. So therefore it would have to be a 2 man rule for all chippers. Including homeowner rentals etc. How would that be policed/enforced? Especially when nothing else is, that is currently the standard.

Never said I was against a last chance device, as long as it doesnt effect the use, or efficiency, of the chipper. Cause this would cover all chippers...hacks, homeowners and good quality tree companies (it would be like chain brake on chainsaw, or anti kick chains etc). A one time cost built into the equipment, that allows dummies to run the piece of equipment.

Like I've said before. I personally feel chipper safety comes down to proper training, common sense, know when to quit, when to cut, when to ask for help, and making sure your employee does/knows these things. Not being about the money/production, but being about doing the job right (whether going long or short) and above all safely.

Sure accidents happen. We are human, we get tired, do stupid things etc. But one has to recognize that and act accordingly.

If I wanted a safe job with low risks, I would have chose a office job. It is part of the field, be smart and dont let your guard down.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

[ QUOTE ]
I think the certified crane operators regulations are clear precedent that increased equipment capacities clearly demand two qualified operators on the job site working together for compliance with safe operations in both OSHA's and the crane companies' eyes today.

Equipment capacity exceeds X amount? You shall have two operators on the job site for safe operations.

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]
Whether or not OSHA requires it or not, cranes over x capacity require more than one operator anyway. One to drive the crane and at least one to drive the truck(s) carrying all the parts. Given bridge laws, that could be as little as 60 tons depending on axles an tires. A slippery slope for an example to be citing. Eg. NY 6" capacity requires 2 operators, NE requires 1.
Just because a chipper can take 18" doesn't meen it need to be all at once or in
one piece to be productive. If you need to be hanging off the feed bar and depressing the override would be deliberately circumventing safety systems and the owners manual. Enlisting the help of a second operator and another rule seems to be an asinine remedy to an equipment abuse problem.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Going out to cut the grass. Gonna use my tractor to mow the steep ditch. Don't worry though, I'll have the wife ride in a trailer so incase I flip the tractor she'll be there to shut off the blades.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

If it's an equipment abuse problem alone?

Then why engineer a panick handle so deep inside the in feed chute?

It's a tacit admission that the chipper manufacturers are acutely aware that the chances of getting sucked into their chippers was high enough to hope the trapped mistake prone operator still had their wits intact enough to yank those bloody handles in time?

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

[ QUOTE ]
If it's an equipment abuse problem alone?

Then why engineer a panick handle so deep inside the in feed chute?

It's a tacit admission that the chipper manufacturers are acutely aware that the chances of getting sucked into their chippers was high enough to hope the trapped mistake prone operator still had their wits intact enough to yank those bloody handles in time?

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]
Same reason saws have inertia and mechanically activated chain brakes. Not gonna stop intentional abuse of the saw. Doesn't mean another operator needs to be present to slap the chain brake just in case.
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

One year at Expo I was making my rounds of the trade show floor. While going along the aisles I looked far ahead to a chipper display. There, inside the chute I saw a couple of cables. From that distance I couldn't tell what they were for. After thinking for a few seconds and walking towards the booth it was evident that it was some sort of emergency reversing mechanism. When I got leg-to-chute close enough I could see what was designed. Hmmm...interesting!

While I stood there to study the safety addition I pulled the feed bar back into operating position. Then I bent forward and reached into the chute to tug the cable. I really had to get a solid grip on the cable and yank hard to flip the valve into reverse. Of course, this was a brand new machine and things were still a bit tight. With a little use the mechanisms might loosen a little. That could be good or bad.

Then I laid down on my belly in the chute. by this time a sales rep came along to answer questions. I tried to put myself in all of the positions that I might find myself if I was being pulled into the chipper. In most cases the cables were really difficult to grab. Plus...my hand slipped off more times than not before the valve flipped.

The sales rep was professional and non-commital about his belief that the cables could/would save a life. What he would say was that they might...so why not have them on. Fair enough.

J...in your experiences it seems like there were other operators around and you still had near misses. Is this proposed rule going to really work?

Stay away from apple and antelope tangents now ;)
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Seems to top the list of OSHA recommendations to lessen and help prevent these wood chipper fatalities on the job.

Not only do I agree with OSHA's top recommendation, but actually implementing it on my jobs resulted in three chipper operators lives being saved.

Sorta speaks for itself in an extremely pragmatic way IMO.

jomoco
 
Re: Whole Tree Chipper Two Man Minimum Rule Adopti

Those must be the chipper operators that Morbark designed and produced those last chance panick handles for inside their feed chutes?

jomoco
 
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