Who runs legit?

This thread has turned assbackward and made many of you look like clowns. Making your business legitimate is the only way to make money over the long term. Your assets are only protected with the right insurance in place, and you have to keep yourself from being sued or turned in by employees who invariably have some falling out.

There is a whole other world of work out there for legitimate business - HOA's, apartments, city/government contracts, business parks, etc., all typically require the proper insurance to be in place. Even insurance companies will keep you on file for no-bid contracts once they have established your credentials and fairness.

Employees are tools. They work to make you a profit; if they cease to be effective in that role, fire them today and do the goddamned work yourself. But don't ever post on a forum how generous and sainted you must be to pay worker's compensation, and how far back that sets your profits. If someone is paid under the table, they typically are going to ask for more money - i.e, as a contract climber would. If they are on payroll, they typically receive less hourly, but have a little more peace of mind if they get maimed at work while making you money.

The bureaucracy and paperwork is a wonderful obstacle to overcome. It's a great filter and barrier to entry. This is why you don't see the illegal immigrants purchasing cranes and grapple loaders or living in large homes or water skiing behind MasterCraft boats. They are far more likely to end up as tools for the building of other's profits. Let's don't pretend that they are the most efficient providers of tree care and an impossible force to compete against. You may have misgivings, but don't go believing that crap. That way lies damnation . . .
 
[ QUOTE ]


But don't ever post on a forum how generous and sainted you must be to pay worker's compensation, and how far back that sets your profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!
 
[ QUOTE ]
This thread has turned assbackward and made many of you look like clowns. Making your business legitimate is the only way to make money over the long term. Your assets are only protected with the right insurance in place, and you have to keep yourself from being sued or turned in by employees who invariably have some falling out.

There is a whole other world of work out there for legitimate business - HOA's, apartments, city/government contracts, business parks, etc., all typically require the proper insurance to be in place. Even insurance companies will keep you on file for no-bid contracts once they have established your credentials and fairness.

Employees are tools. They work to make you a profit; if they cease to be effective in that role, fire them today and do the goddamned work yourself. But don't ever post on a forum how generous and sainted you must be to pay worker's compensation, and how far back that sets your profits. If someone is paid under the table, they typically are going to ask for more money - i.e, as a contract climber would. If they are on payroll, they typically receive less hourly, but have a little more peace of mind if they get maimed at work while making you money.

The bureaucracy and paperwork is a wonderful obstacle to overcome. It's a great filter and barrier to entry. This is why you don't see the illegal immigrants purchasing cranes and grapple loaders or living in large homes or water skiing behind MasterCraft boats. They are far more likely to end up as tools for the building of other's profits. Let's don't pretend that they are the most efficient providers of tree care and an impossible force to compete against. You may have misgivings, but don't go believing that crap. That way lies damnation . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Dru, this is an excellent, thoughtful post but the other world of treework you reference is much smaller and less profitable than where the lion's share of treework is, in residential, IMO. Town work, for example, is done here super cheaply, and with the skyhigh insurance limits required, it isn't worth it IMO. Being on a no-bid list with the insurance cos. would be cool, but how often does a bad storm hit one's home area?? And when it does, you are already busy as heck with your regular customers anyway.

The flybynights put a significant dent in the residential treework around here. True, most won't last in biz but others will replace them quickly so there is a net bad effect on the legits.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I go on my own perception of right and wrong, not laws made up by a bunch of corrupt politicians.


[/ QUOTE ]


That's kinda scary Blinky.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not "kinda scary....." That is just fn crooked....

Blinky, if you are going to own a business, you have to play by the rules.

Otherwise--- YOU ARE A CROOK! A LAW BREAKER! A CRIMINAL!!

One other thing that really bugged me.... "When you're as poor as I am, life is distilled to it's essence and you can bet that paying insurance companies and other parasites was burned off a long time ago."

Please, If you are skilled enough to climb a tree, then at minimum go make enough money to pay for a counselor to fix that "poor me/victim" mindset.

That is just some b s. Sorry, no sympathy here. Go grow a set and throw a real price. If you are not skilled enough to sell high enough prices to match your competition, then hire a salesman.

But you "poor victim me" attitude sucks big time.

If you are that broke, just go get a job as a climber and stop pushing down the market.... Crook!

(strong emphasis fully intended...)

____________________________________


So Treecareinc apparently DOES run legit.

Blinkey has said the he chooses not to...


I am still waiting for a 2nd tree service in Atlanta to step up?????

Any bold takers????
 
I think Blinky is channeling an old line of Bob Dylan's: to live outside the law, you must be honest.

And I totally agree with the nut of the argument he's making. If you do hang up your spurs, Danielson, you should try getting a badge - you'd make a good cop!
 
What I hate is that I like to do other things such as landscaping for example where the average is in the 30-40/hour range. But I also like to do big scary removals which requires 80-100/ hour. In order to be legit for the big removals it means you cant aford to spread mulch or make flower beds. Is there a way to reconcile this?
 
Talk to your insurance agent about the percentage of landscaping/gardening compared to the amount tree work you do. They are different class codes with different premiums. Tree work obviously the more expensive one. They might have you pay for the 2 separately based on your payroll and exposure in each area. You might get a reduction in your overall premium. I need to try the same thing because I do lot of low risk work as well that landscapers could easily do, but I pay the higher of the two premiums. I'm calling my agent today. Thanks
 
There is also classifications for pruning vs. removal. Then there are other classifications for sawmilling and firewood. It could get complicated very quickly and it gives me a headache.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think Blinky is channeling an old line of Bob Dylan's: to live outside the law, you must be honest.

And I totally agree with the nut of the argument he's making. If you do hang up your spurs, Danielson, you should try getting a badge - you'd make a good cop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Smile......

Badges are coming for us all..... They will be here in a week.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What I hate is that I like to do other things such as landscaping for example where the average is in the 30-40/hour range. But I also like to do big scary removals which requires 80-100/ hour. In order to be legit for the big removals it means you cant aford to spread mulch or make flower beds. Is there a way to reconcile this?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the easiest ways to keep track of which hours are which is to use a job clock. that way when your guys switch from trees to landscaping, they can clock out and clock back in under the different code.

Auditers like this type of documentation.

There are mobile aps that you can use such as http://www.exaktime.com
 
Specifically stating in the contract what will be done and how help.

In Washington, wholesale ground felling of a tree is "logging" at over $10 per hour per person, whereas climbing to dismantle a tree is a lot less.

I specify ground fell, or climbing dismantle after talking with my WC people.

Ask them how they want it documented in writing and pictures and...
 
So I just went through the majority of the thread and it has gotten a bit out of hand. "Running Legit" is the only way to go long term in my opinion. You must protect yourself, employees, HO, and anyone or anything associated with tree work. If you dont do this, one day you will get caught. You play with fire, you get burnt.

I think the only way to run your business, or for that matter your life, is to worry about yourself and not what others are doing. Just because their are fly by night companies underbidding your sales doesnt mean you have to change your ways and give into what you deem wrong. Each of us puts emphasis on whats important and whats right, but its a matter of perspective. I might see something as right, where as someone else might see it as not important. Its a difference of perspective. Fly by night companies will always be their, ALWAYS. My experience is that they get the clients I dont want to deal with anyways.

My dad owns and operates a tree care company here in CT, we are 100% legit and do everything that we are supposed to as a company, and then some. There are plenty of fly by nights in our area, we dont even try to compete with them. We give or bids and let the cookie crumble from their. Its out of our hands, but we know what we need to make to cover the operating fees.

Educating your clients is a good way to build client relations, but do whats right for yourself and those associated with your business and dont give yourself panic attacks thinking and worrying about what other companies are doing. If they are not "legit," they are on their way to an accident and going out of business. It may take 10 years, but you will be their long after they are gone
 
Well said Dan.

I think that this should be easier for people that are established in their business, as they have had years to build their client base. I suspect and hope that in time, I will have less to worry about. As you say, it may take 10 years to have an accident catch up to someone, and it may take 10 years (hopefully half that, I just hit 3 years) to hit that critical mass needed to be more easily self-sustaining, and not worry so much about business lost to people bidding less due to lower overhead of no insurances/ bookkeeping expenses, bonds, etc.
 
That's also my view of the situation. Forget about competing with those low bidders. You just end up with alot of repeat customers who just want cheapest every time. They will go to the next cheapest as soon you try to get a little more for the quality service you have provided time and time again. You know what a job is worth. Stick to it. You will work less but get more per job. This is the customer base you want to build and the referrals you want. Not the "Call this guy. He's dirt cheap" But, "He's fully insured, licensed, took great care with my property, safety conscious, well equipped crew. Professional. Not the lowest bid but I'd use him again because I know what I'm getting. Give him a call." Or something like that. Time will tell but I've ruled out competing with the low bidders as the key to success. And so far the new approach is working better.
 
Daniel, get off your high horse, you sound shrill. I don't feel sorry for myself, I'm happier than I EVER been... just poor, which ain't as bad as everybody acts like it is.

I said I don't claim to be legit because I don't carry worker's comp. I was using YOUR definition, it's perfectly legal in NC to run as a sole proprietor w/o WC. I comply with the law but not because I give a damn about it. I do what I can for myself and the people closest to me, that's my law... when you grow up you'll probably understand a little better.

I throw fat prices, Bartlett outbids me EVERY time...so you can shove that little theory. I work top dollar properties, my customers are insured with my liability policy (that and an auto policy are the only insurance I buy). My work is first quality, most of my business is repeat customers. I've been in the top 5% of service providers on Angie's List 3 years in a row. I'm not underbidding anybody that I know of but usually, I don't go against competing bids anyway. I give a price, they say yes or no. Reputation beats legal compliance every time.

The difference is, I'm not some tree assault team running around trying to bag 5 jobs a day. I don't HAVE to do a lot of bids to make a living, three jobs a week is fine. I don't need much money at this point, my time is more important.

It's YOU who's feeling sorry for yourself and this thread is the evidence of it. It's unbecoming too, not like you at all from what I've read and seen in the past. I understand how frustrating it is to be constantly outbid by hacks when you've got people you're responsible for... this isn't my first business, it's the third... technically fourth. It's scary, I actually had a panic attack once... freaked me out, never experienced anything like it before or since.

Dan W. said it best. Compete on what you're good at, know your target market, build your base, give your bids and trust that doing the right thing will not let you down. You (or the government) can't control other people, not effectively anyway. Let go of what they do and focus on what you do. You're doing it right but being in business is never completely secure. If you can tolerate that you'll probably reach your goals, if you don't... find another way to make a living.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have WC, I can't even afford my own health insurance, much less someone else's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have health problems that make insurance unaffordable?





Here's another one I'm unsure about, you don't like banks, I can understand that, so you take cash,

do you claim the cash as income and pay tax on it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom