Who runs legit?

Here's the problem with those that don't run legit.

You don't have the lawful expense we have which means you don't need to charge as much, this also means you most likely will get the job and the rest of us will look like gougers.

Maybe now you'll understand why I'm so passionate about this subject.
 
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Here's the problem with those that don't run legit.

You don't have the lawful expense we have which means you don't need to charge as much, this also means you most likely will get the job and the rest of us will look like gougers.

Maybe now you'll understand why I'm so passionate about this subject.

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I feel the exact same way....

This is why I started the post.
 
Legit businesses pay taxes that fund various parts of our society.

Different states will fund programs differently, such as where school/ road/ law enforcement/ health care/ emergency services/ social services/funding comes from, but most local and state governments generate revenue only from tax paying businesses.

Some of these things we may take or leave, but most of us benefit from them in some ways.

I hope that people that don't report everything/ anything try to balance their "karma" by providing some discount/ free services when they find someone in need, or do some work in their community.
 
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Here's the problem with those that don't run legit.

You don't have the lawful expense we have which means you don't need to charge as much, this also means you most likely will get the job and the rest of us will look like gougers.

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Yep. It's a bunch of crap. And especially when illegal operations spitefully undercut a bid by asking some one elses price (prior to giving their own) and then saying, "Oh, I'll give you 10% off of that price!" They look like the good guy and get the job.
 
I consider myself 'not legit', I don't pay worker's comp. Sorry, I refused to by an absurdly expensive ghost policy that covers NO ONE just to be 'legit'. Screw that, does anybody actually think a law that mandates separate insurance for work and personal is 'legit'? Who the hell do you think wrote that law and had their buddies pass it?

I go on my own perception of right and wrong, not laws made up by a bunch of corrupt politicians.

Around here, it's the big 'legit' companies doing the underbidding just to keep all their trucks running. I get outbid by those guys every week, frequently by a third.

Big crews do 2 maybe 4 jobs per crew per day. I take a day, maybe two to do a single job because I use less people and less equipment... but I can do as GOOD a job as anyone out there. I like it that way and so do my customers.

Look folks, if we buy into the American dream and capitalism, we don't get to bitch about small fry making our lives difficult. The way the American dream works is, you start out as a small fry and you WORK your way up... that is, WORK, not BUY your way up.

Making lots of laws that create barriers to entry are what lobbyists and politicians do so their well established buddies don't have any REAL competition. If that's what you're about, whine away, otherwise, suck it up and sell to the customers who want quality over price, they're out there, I've got dozens and they repeat often.

Another thing, consider your business model. How much money do you have tied up in heavy, rustng metal. You like your cool equipment right? I know guys that are in the tree business JUST so they have an excuse to own big toys. That stuff has a big price tag, big insurance tag and a big maintenance tag... in other words, it ain't exactly cost conservative. A guy without all that gear can charge less and he should because his costs are lower. Every tree doesn't need to be chipped and dumped, removing biomass from a site is bad. Just because you CAN move and dispose of wood doesn't necessarily mean you should.

I'm all for dumptrucks and stuff but some of you guys have three or four along with a whole bunch of other stuff... that doesn't make you legit, it makes you in debt. It means you HAVE to charge high prices because of all those payments and insurance. A more efficient or creative crew will do you every time once you become a slave to your banker.
 
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Wow...

I have no choice but to run legit... and this is how the market polices itself. I have assets that will be taken if a worker get injured and I don't have workman's comp. If I get cancer and don't have health insurance my assets will have to be sold and used before medicaid will step in a pay my health care costs. I can't risk what I have worked for over the last 17 years to no insurance. Can't put my family or employees in that position.

I refuse to treat the people that work for me any different than I would want to be treated (you're a hypocrite if you do). My guys have retirement, health insurance, make a decent wage. We all pay taxes and are contributing members of the community (for the most part).

I am punished because I follow the rules. My prices are compared to prices of companies that are not playing by the same rules. I am required to work harder and do more (lower profit margin) to overcome this deficit.

If your kid worked for me... you would happy to know that he had insurance and was saving for retirement. If your kid worked for someone non-legit you'd worry about him getting injured or not providing for his family or what he's gonna do when he gets older.

I not judging anyone... At them end of the day you know what's right and it's not for me to determine. My gripe is that I am punished with lower profits and forced to work harder because I have done the right thing over the years. I am forced to carry the insurance because the penalty for me is severe.

If you have nothing to take then why run legit?? This is what drives legitimacy in my estimation. I also believe that being un-legit stops you from taking the next step and growing in business. The attention that you have on "getting caught" or not being able to bid certain jobs stops you from expanding. Bank sure won't lend you any money if you aren't paying tax.

This post isn't meant to offend... just to give another view.

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Excellent post.

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x2
 
Blinky,
Who here has said that you have to be tied into a big banker and pay lot's of insurance to be legit?

You have low overhead? good for you, that's not my complaint.

There are laws though that are required for us to be in this business, taxes are a big one, workers comp on employees is another. Cut both those out and you'll have a much cheaper price than I will, that's the part that's not fair.

It is what it is though Blinky.

Now, if we could only lower taxes...
 
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Blinky,


Now, if we could only lower taxes...

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That wont happen til they cut there expenses..
 
I know that there are states that allow WC exemptions. Florida allows non-construction companies of 5 employees or less to apply for exemption.

If I run my company legally without WC, is that wrong?

As Blinky points out, there are states where the owner of the company can't claim WC. i have friends in other states that are the sole employee of their companies (not tree care) and carry WC but have to us their personal health insurance for injuries.

I'm not taking sides on the issue just throwing out thoughts.
 
Blinky, you not covering yourself with WC is okay as the boss, in my mind, and a lot of laws, if you are running legally where the HO is not responsible for you. Not covering employees is where it matters.



Paying all taxes/ WC/ etc doesn't MAKE person a skilled, safe treeworker. I don't think that anyone would suggest that, nor the opposite situation.

I think that there is likely some positive correlation between people that follow the laws and safety, as well as a positive correlation between people that are fly by night, and the likelihood of not covering their "employees" with WC insurance, or safety training, PPE, etc.



If you don't have employees, so don't have to pay payroll expenses, fine. Some jobs really can't be done competitively without a second person, so there is the inequality.


Here, you have to be bonded whether you are a single person company or a 1000 person company. Again, said inequality.


If it is optional to carry WC on employees, strangely IMO, then everyone is on the level playing field. If the company CHOOSES to go over the minimum threshold it is on them.

The problem is when people are threatened by huge fines to run legit, and others are not enforced. If I wasn't on the state's books, they would have had little chance to enforce the bond requirement, where someone who isn't providing any consumer protection, nor contributing any taxes to fund the gov't spending that they benefit from, wouldn't be able to be found and fined very easily.




Not providing customers with protection, unbeknownst to them, when they think that they are hiring a legit company is like charging them for good materials, then building a house with cheap materials, hidden within the walls.
 
Blinky has a very different view of this than I do. That doesn't mean I'm right and he's wrong. There are consequences for every decision you make... good and bad. In my view there are consequences for running non-legit. At what point do they creep up on you????

I work everyday to fund my retirement. I have a retirement goal and that is important to me. Between paying insurance and saving for retirement there is not much left. I explain what I know about retirement to my employees and offer the same program I use with a company contribution to them. In my eyes, working non-legit, will definitely catch you at retirement, if not sooner.

The consequences of illegitimacy are effecting this guys family now:

http://www.whiotv.com/news/25318338/detail.html

The company he was working for had no comp, no assets, etc. I don't know if he had life insurance, but if not the only person in this picture with any assets is: The homeowner. This is a subject that is hard to bring up, but it is a real, legitimate nightmare that can happen. I wonder if this poor guy even understood the consequences of working in this environment? It makes me sad to even contemplate!

My question is: When does it make sense to stop running non-legit and get a job with a company like mine? I guarantee everyday you work non-legit, you will make more money than you could make working for me. What is the value of retirement, health insurance, and the knowledge that your family will not be left empty handed? To me it is priceless... you might not have a family, or have other reasons behind you choices... they are yours, and I'm cool with that!

I hate insurance, government regulations, taxes etc. I wish that I could keep all the money I generated too. I choose to work and live in "the system" and play by the rules. It's none of my business if you choose not to, just understand the consequences.

I don't want more government to enforce the rules, or more taxes... It's up to you to run legit or not. People will always find ways around the rules. If I cease to be able to run legit, then I change careers or get a legit job. I gave up on changing the country through government years ago. It is education of arborists and consumers that will change this. It is too big a mountain for me.... I will just continue to show up everyday and give my 100%!

In a perfect world everyone would "do the right thing". My employees would show up everyday and work like robots, everyone would pay their taxes, I would dole out million dollar attendance bonuses... Life ain't perfect and neither am I... It's problems like this that make up life and they exist in every industry. I have been so pissed about this in the past... it never got me anywhere. Danielson, your time is better invested in things you can control... if you can overcome this one, you're a better man than me!!! This is a battle for the ISA or TCI to wage and I'm not sure they can overcome it either!
 
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Here's the problem with those that don't run legit.

You don't have the lawful expense we have which means you don't need to charge as much, this also means you most likely will get the job and the rest of us will look like gougers.

Maybe now you'll understand why I'm so passionate about this subject.

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I hate when doing the lawful thing... makes you look like a gouger!!!
 
Why worry about a problem that will never go away?

There's enough work for everyone (even the hacks).

I ran my bus. legit for 10 years and faced all the same woes you all mention.

If I did it again, everything would be under the table.



we could all hope for the government to step in and force further regulation...... that would fix everything wouldn't it?
 
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If it's not illegal it's not wrong.

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I don't know if you're joking or not but that gets to the heart of the matter for me.

Laws aren't right... you HAVE noticed how laws get made, right? You think that ANY of the lawmakers in congress make good, fair laws? Those traits aren't even a factor in lawmaking... it's the art of the deal and has nothing to do with right and wrong.

I was raised to question authority and since I can't (cuz they don't care or answer), I go my own way.

If it hurts somebody, it's wrong, if it doesn't, it's OK.
I always have to add that I have no illusions that I go through life without hurting others, I do, we all do... but I go way out of my way to cause as little hurt as possible and I give back often.

When laws are made so that we can all understand them then I'll think about living within them. Currently, my own personal laws are a bit stricter than the government's.

Goldman-Sachs didn't break any laws when they helped devastate the economy and 1000's of families were financially ruined while they sucked on the fed's teat and passed out bonuses... so I guess they're cool, eh? I mean, I'm sure they pay WC.
 
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If it's not illegal it's not wrong.

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I knew that statement was going to lead to "just because it's legal doesn't make it right" debate. That's a subject for another thread or forum. As far as running a business in any locality, the law is the law. The laws are there to protect everyone involved. $h!t happens and the laws dictate the safeguards that need to be in place for everyone's' financial and legal protection in that event. You're either responsible and operate within the law, or irresponsible and expose yourself and others involved to legal and financial risk to save a couple of bucks. Those savings are passed on to the public in the form of low bids that the legitimate operators cannot match or beat and make a worthwhile profit. This is the situation that started this thread.
 
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