- Location
- Pukalani, Hawaii
i think i underestimate my capabilities and sell myself short. that must be why i get those thoughts about charging more then i do now. all good advice though from all yall. thanks
what is your life worth ? $$$
- Thread starter Maui Palm & Tree Care
- Start date
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
$ and life are two different subjects. Tough question.
Your a one in 7 billion odds of being special. Math works.
Your a one in 7 billion odds of being special. Math works.
- Location
- Southington, CT
Hey not for nothing but I dont look at it that way, and never did. years ago a business man would say to me " how much an hour do you charge?" I would answere dont know , I have to look at the tree first, hes replied " you have to have an hourly rate to be in business and do it right" I replied, not in my business! I risk my life climbing your dead tree you let be dead for years and I find a way with all my experience to get a line in another tree to then go climb onto your dead tree and get her on the ground with no damage to your house and it only takes me 1 hour, Im not making $25 bucks. Im not making $100 bucks either! it's a balance between what the job is worth and the Time and equipment and experience level needed to do the job. you can have an estimated hourly rate for pruning or ground work for say, or daily rates and such. but when it comes to rigging and all, I look at it different! If it takes me three hours but it's dangerous tactical stuff I want to think I am making at least $4 - 7 hundred, and I may finish it faster due to having my tricks. I should still get paid for it. Just like if you had a crane show up and your done in 2 hours with a hole job. do you only charge for 2 hours n crane? dont think so. Charge what the job is worth balanced with the estimated hours too. Good luck P.S. different area's / states will vary what people will pay for.
- Location
- Pukalani, Hawaii
[ QUOTE ]
Hey not for nothing but I dont look at it that way, and never did. years ago a business man would say to me " how much an hour do you charge?" I would answere dont know , I have to look at the tree first, hes replied " you have to have an hourly rate to be in business and do it right" I replied, not in my business! I risk my life climbing your dead tree you let be dead for years and I find a way with all my experience to get a line in another tree to then go climb onto your dead tree and get her on the ground with no damage to your house and it only takes me 1 hour, Im not making $25 bucks. Im not making $100 bucks either! it's a balance between what the job is worth and the Time and equipment and experience level needed to do the job. you can have an estimated hourly rate for pruning or ground work for say, or daily rates and such. but when it comes to rigging and all, I look at it different! If it takes me three hours but it's dangerous tactical stuff I want to think I am making at least $4 - 7 hundred, and I may finish it faster due to having my tricks. I should still get paid for it. Just like if you had a crane show up and your done in 2 hours with a hole job. do you only charge for 2 hours n crane? dont think so. Charge what the job is worth balanced with the estimated hours too. Good luck P.S. different area's / states will vary what people will pay for.
[/ QUOTE ]
like button has been clicked.
Hey not for nothing but I dont look at it that way, and never did. years ago a business man would say to me " how much an hour do you charge?" I would answere dont know , I have to look at the tree first, hes replied " you have to have an hourly rate to be in business and do it right" I replied, not in my business! I risk my life climbing your dead tree you let be dead for years and I find a way with all my experience to get a line in another tree to then go climb onto your dead tree and get her on the ground with no damage to your house and it only takes me 1 hour, Im not making $25 bucks. Im not making $100 bucks either! it's a balance between what the job is worth and the Time and equipment and experience level needed to do the job. you can have an estimated hourly rate for pruning or ground work for say, or daily rates and such. but when it comes to rigging and all, I look at it different! If it takes me three hours but it's dangerous tactical stuff I want to think I am making at least $4 - 7 hundred, and I may finish it faster due to having my tricks. I should still get paid for it. Just like if you had a crane show up and your done in 2 hours with a hole job. do you only charge for 2 hours n crane? dont think so. Charge what the job is worth balanced with the estimated hours too. Good luck P.S. different area's / states will vary what people will pay for.
[/ QUOTE ]
like button has been clicked.
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
I don't think any other professions get danger pay. They get higher pay for higher skill, more training and special equipment and all of that has a cost. We're bringing all those things with us on every job and they cost the same. Dead trees is my speciality but also just another job.
What the market will bear on a given day with the right sucker is, well, unprofessional. I'm afraid being God's gift to trees is priceless.
What the market will bear on a given day with the right sucker is, well, unprofessional. I'm afraid being God's gift to trees is priceless.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Josh, look into going legit.
When figuring your pricing, in addition to the cost of GL, remember other overhead like commercial auto insurance (more expensive than GL, IME), disability insurance (if you're interested in covering yourself, somewhat as an employer would pay with WC if they were employing someone), self-employment tax, income tax, bookkeeping, licensing and bonding fees, profit margin, hourly labor rate for yourself, equipment repairs/ replacement, continuing education, and as mentioned what the market will bear compared to how much backlog you want.
Don't hope to get every bid, or even most bids. That will mean you're too cheap. If they don't even have to think about the price, or ask how soon you can do it, it might mean that they don't want you to have time to re-think it.
When figuring your pricing, in addition to the cost of GL, remember other overhead like commercial auto insurance (more expensive than GL, IME), disability insurance (if you're interested in covering yourself, somewhat as an employer would pay with WC if they were employing someone), self-employment tax, income tax, bookkeeping, licensing and bonding fees, profit margin, hourly labor rate for yourself, equipment repairs/ replacement, continuing education, and as mentioned what the market will bear compared to how much backlog you want.
Don't hope to get every bid, or even most bids. That will mean you're too cheap. If they don't even have to think about the price, or ask how soon you can do it, it might mean that they don't want you to have time to re-think it.
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
I not sure about the variable rate game. Big storm damage is worth more money for a number of reasons. Rush jobs same thing. I was one rate for five years, no haggling, lost money, added $20/hour to rate for 1.5 seasons and made money. Easier without auctioneering.
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
did you ever figure out your expenses per man hour?
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
More or less. All I do is work since getting into this. All expenses are work or survival related nothing extravagant. I know what kind of income it should take to maintain my lifestyle and know how much money is left at the end of the season. At the end of the season can baby wear new shoes?
Through the first three+ months the bank account stays basically balanced and the light begins to shine in early July.
Through the first three+ months the bank account stays basically balanced and the light begins to shine in early July.
There is a lot of GREAT information an wise advice on this thread.
Especially:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong question, your life is priceless. I have passed up several trees that I could not see a safe way to remove. Learn how to do a job safely and don't take a job if you can't create a safe plan.
Knowing what to charge is easy. The study of economics teaches us to charge as much as the market will bear.
Translation: charge enough to stay busy.
How far out do you want to be booked? 1 week, 2 weeks, a month? I try to stay booked for two weeks. The market doesn't care how much it costs you to do a job. In a good way they are selfish and will compare you with the competition.
My customers want to feel comfortable that they are hiring a professional at a competitive price. You figure out your pricing by how much work you have. If you charge too much, no one will hire you. Undercut everyone, while maintaining quality, and you will go out of business fast.
Growing a business is a fun challenge. Make a plan for where you want to be a year or two from now. Grow slowly. Starting off the market will not pay you top dollar. You have to build you skills, image, and reputation.
Last bit of advice. Get paid for results, not effort. Don't focus on an hourly rate, focus on how much you can get done and how much that job is worth to the customer. Then, figure out how to do it faster. As you start charging more and can't keep up with all the work, buy better tools. That is the best way to get a raise, get more done in the same amount of time.
1. Charge enough to stay busy
2. Focus on results, not effort
3. Improve your skills, image, reputation
It should go without saying that you have to do this at a profit. If you can't, you should work for someone else while you work on number 2 and 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think new people should print that one out and stick it on their wall. Or people that have a hard time making ends meet and want to make sense of their pricing. Very intelligent advice there!
But I think Passion for Trees is thinking like Maui tree and Palm and I don’t think that is the way to price things. Don’t take offense please, Passion for Trees. Difference of opinion, it doesn’t mean I’m correct. This is what forums are for, conversing and trying to share knowledge.
I never believe that a tree should be expensive, because there is a risk of death or injury in that tree situation. If the tree takes a lot of skill to do it safely, doing it safely usually takes longer and therefore the extra time is what makes the price go up.
Lets take for example your really dead tree that the home owner left dead way too long, say 6 years. White rot fungi everywhere, roots might be rotted off. In a situation where the tree can’t be felled without likely damage to some buildings; tree needs to be pieced out.
Here are possible and safe ways of doing this tree and the related costs with taking that tree down safely:
___________________________________________________
1. Skilled tree company uses their best climber. Climber decides tree might be unstable, so he takes the time to set up guide ropes to hold tree in place using throw lines to place and secure them. Then climber and crew set up a high line and the climber works very safely off the high line and dismantles the tree.
Takes 3 hours to set up and 3 hours to dismantle the tree and clean up.
3 man crew, truck and chipper.
This crew can usually accomplish $250 worth of work an hour.
Tree correctly priced at 6hr x $250 = $1500.
2. Choice two. Crane is used.
Crane time on the job almost 2 hours, rental cost was $500.
Crew of 3 men, truck and chipper and the crane set up and time of cleanup was less time, 4 hours total. 4 x $250= 1000 for the tree company.
Crane rental $500 + $1000 tree company = $1500 AGAIN for the same tree removal cost.
3. Choice three. Tree is difficult to get close too, so some brush cutting and altura mats had to be laid down for a bucket truck to get in close. Bucket truck operator can’t reach all, but can reach with a pole chainsaw and dismantles the tree.
Bucket truck, chip truck and chipper and three men are used to accomplishing work at the usual rate of $300 an hour.
Job took them 5 hours to finish.
5hr x $300 an hour = $1500 Again.
4. Let’s pick an odd one for the sake of example.
15 illegal and underpaid Mexicans do the job.
They get paid $5.00 an hour.
15 x $5.00 = $75 and their piece of crap boss likes to clear $75 an hour on top of their costs.
$75+ $75 = $150 hour.
Their boss was a house painter and has tons of scaffolding.
It takes a very long full day to set up scaffolding around the whole tree and they piece it apart in tiny chunks safely and dismantle the scaffolding as they go down.
10 hours x $150 = $1500 once again. Imagine that.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Really though, this is how correct pricing of trees should turn out and in reality they are very close. Maybe $100 or $200 difference. It has to be the exact tree and the region will set the prices that should be charged.
More equipment and more skill makes the hourly rate higher, but in turn, they get it done faster and it comes out very close to the same price no mater how it’s done safely.
_______________________________________
Now, if you throw safety out the window, this is when you have no idea what hourly rate you and your crew should charge. Some days it turns out to be $150 an hour, some days you make $700 an hour.
Take that same tree and hillbilly Butch says, “all... no big deal, it will probably stay up“.
He doesn’t do any preparation, spikes up the thing and strips it out.
His adrenaline is going the hole time and he’s sweating bullets. A few times he banged another limb and the tree swayed and he thought this is it, I’m going to go down with this tree.
The tree stayed up luckily and they got the whole tree done in 3.25 hours.
He knew that other companies in the area probably would have charged $1500 for that tree and that’s pretty much what he priced it at.
$1500 / 3.25 hours = he made $461 an HOUR for that three man crew that day.
He thinks to himself $461.00 !!!!! That’s awesome. Well, my life is worth it, that was a dangerous tree.
8 years later of doing the same unsafe practices, old Butch has a tree break off and he gets killed. Did he make enough in his career to pay for his life?
Especially:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong question, your life is priceless. I have passed up several trees that I could not see a safe way to remove. Learn how to do a job safely and don't take a job if you can't create a safe plan.
Knowing what to charge is easy. The study of economics teaches us to charge as much as the market will bear.
Translation: charge enough to stay busy.
How far out do you want to be booked? 1 week, 2 weeks, a month? I try to stay booked for two weeks. The market doesn't care how much it costs you to do a job. In a good way they are selfish and will compare you with the competition.
My customers want to feel comfortable that they are hiring a professional at a competitive price. You figure out your pricing by how much work you have. If you charge too much, no one will hire you. Undercut everyone, while maintaining quality, and you will go out of business fast.
Growing a business is a fun challenge. Make a plan for where you want to be a year or two from now. Grow slowly. Starting off the market will not pay you top dollar. You have to build you skills, image, and reputation.
Last bit of advice. Get paid for results, not effort. Don't focus on an hourly rate, focus on how much you can get done and how much that job is worth to the customer. Then, figure out how to do it faster. As you start charging more and can't keep up with all the work, buy better tools. That is the best way to get a raise, get more done in the same amount of time.
1. Charge enough to stay busy
2. Focus on results, not effort
3. Improve your skills, image, reputation
It should go without saying that you have to do this at a profit. If you can't, you should work for someone else while you work on number 2 and 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think new people should print that one out and stick it on their wall. Or people that have a hard time making ends meet and want to make sense of their pricing. Very intelligent advice there!
But I think Passion for Trees is thinking like Maui tree and Palm and I don’t think that is the way to price things. Don’t take offense please, Passion for Trees. Difference of opinion, it doesn’t mean I’m correct. This is what forums are for, conversing and trying to share knowledge.
I never believe that a tree should be expensive, because there is a risk of death or injury in that tree situation. If the tree takes a lot of skill to do it safely, doing it safely usually takes longer and therefore the extra time is what makes the price go up.
Lets take for example your really dead tree that the home owner left dead way too long, say 6 years. White rot fungi everywhere, roots might be rotted off. In a situation where the tree can’t be felled without likely damage to some buildings; tree needs to be pieced out.
Here are possible and safe ways of doing this tree and the related costs with taking that tree down safely:
___________________________________________________
1. Skilled tree company uses their best climber. Climber decides tree might be unstable, so he takes the time to set up guide ropes to hold tree in place using throw lines to place and secure them. Then climber and crew set up a high line and the climber works very safely off the high line and dismantles the tree.
Takes 3 hours to set up and 3 hours to dismantle the tree and clean up.
3 man crew, truck and chipper.
This crew can usually accomplish $250 worth of work an hour.
Tree correctly priced at 6hr x $250 = $1500.
2. Choice two. Crane is used.
Crane time on the job almost 2 hours, rental cost was $500.
Crew of 3 men, truck and chipper and the crane set up and time of cleanup was less time, 4 hours total. 4 x $250= 1000 for the tree company.
Crane rental $500 + $1000 tree company = $1500 AGAIN for the same tree removal cost.
3. Choice three. Tree is difficult to get close too, so some brush cutting and altura mats had to be laid down for a bucket truck to get in close. Bucket truck operator can’t reach all, but can reach with a pole chainsaw and dismantles the tree.
Bucket truck, chip truck and chipper and three men are used to accomplishing work at the usual rate of $300 an hour.
Job took them 5 hours to finish.
5hr x $300 an hour = $1500 Again.
4. Let’s pick an odd one for the sake of example.
15 illegal and underpaid Mexicans do the job.
They get paid $5.00 an hour.
15 x $5.00 = $75 and their piece of crap boss likes to clear $75 an hour on top of their costs.
$75+ $75 = $150 hour.
Their boss was a house painter and has tons of scaffolding.
It takes a very long full day to set up scaffolding around the whole tree and they piece it apart in tiny chunks safely and dismantle the scaffolding as they go down.
10 hours x $150 = $1500 once again. Imagine that.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Really though, this is how correct pricing of trees should turn out and in reality they are very close. Maybe $100 or $200 difference. It has to be the exact tree and the region will set the prices that should be charged.
More equipment and more skill makes the hourly rate higher, but in turn, they get it done faster and it comes out very close to the same price no mater how it’s done safely.
_______________________________________
Now, if you throw safety out the window, this is when you have no idea what hourly rate you and your crew should charge. Some days it turns out to be $150 an hour, some days you make $700 an hour.
Take that same tree and hillbilly Butch says, “all... no big deal, it will probably stay up“.
He doesn’t do any preparation, spikes up the thing and strips it out.
His adrenaline is going the hole time and he’s sweating bullets. A few times he banged another limb and the tree swayed and he thought this is it, I’m going to go down with this tree.
The tree stayed up luckily and they got the whole tree done in 3.25 hours.
He knew that other companies in the area probably would have charged $1500 for that tree and that’s pretty much what he priced it at.
$1500 / 3.25 hours = he made $461 an HOUR for that three man crew that day.
He thinks to himself $461.00 !!!!! That’s awesome. Well, my life is worth it, that was a dangerous tree.
8 years later of doing the same unsafe practices, old Butch has a tree break off and he gets killed. Did he make enough in his career to pay for his life?
Poor old Butch ( this is ficticious Butch BTW so don't get an ideas folks I ain't stupid ), guess he decided he liked to play RISK.....came out on the losing end hmmm....life what is yours worth again; I agree mine is priceless, I think my wife, son and daughter would all agree....
- Location
- Southington, CT
All great stuff here, and no offense taken! I feel that as a hole we are selling ourselves short alot of times. I do see we are getting better but still plenty of loop holes to fix. Unlicensed , un insured, lack of experience to handle alot of the dangerous should I say potentially dangerous stuff. Not saying that we are making our job dangerous but we have an inherit DANGER all the time as many of us dont feel this way that fact remains that this could be our last day. Cross your T's and Dot your I's... and we are still at risk. I agree with most of what everyone says, I still feel that we cheat ourselves more and not WIN more for the bad one's. We should do all the extra preparation and we should also bump up the rate on THOSE jobs.. and not feel like were doing something wrong when we do it. I value my life and my services, we see the other guys smashing and crashing right, Im not in it for that race. Im in it for my reputation and Safety and Quality and has to equal Profitable more than the average. If we all thought that way we would be more as a hole and filter out the bad guys. educate the public / home owners and such. I have no problem saying NO Thank you when Im confronted with a landscapers cheap price. Pass it on plenty of work keeps coming. Then sometimes call ya back and hire you to finish or fix what has been done! Wish there were stricter enforcement on Tree workers/ Arborists all together. Most important part of all of it, is everyone goes home SAFE everyday and we keep learning!
Merle Nelson
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- SF Bay Area, CA
Yeah, there is great information on this thread and yes your post does read well David. Man the perspective and knowledge that is brought together and shared here for free!
Peak performance coach Tony Robbins shares his view (and I agree) that the questions we ask focus our mind. Questions we habitually ask shape our world. I have read that it has been documented that a lot of great talent including high wire greats started contemplating (read that entertaining) the thought of their own demise before it actually happened.
I wouldn’t trade my life for money and highly doubt anyone else here would. That being said, I see a lot of great other things listed in this thread to focus on as I continue to work my rates up to “as much as the market will bare” in every instance.
Peak performance coach Tony Robbins shares his view (and I agree) that the questions we ask focus our mind. Questions we habitually ask shape our world. I have read that it has been documented that a lot of great talent including high wire greats started contemplating (read that entertaining) the thought of their own demise before it actually happened.
I wouldn’t trade my life for money and highly doubt anyone else here would. That being said, I see a lot of great other things listed in this thread to focus on as I continue to work my rates up to “as much as the market will bare” in every instance.
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Depends.The range of hurt is a good measure.
No blood no foul
Its going to hurt alot
Minor fracture
Some bruising
If you have to guess as to the out come than
you need to change and know the outcome of a new plan.
Dollar wise, what do you bring to the table?
takes some self analysis.
Cheers
No blood no foul
Its going to hurt alot
Minor fracture
Some bruising
If you have to guess as to the out come than
you need to change and know the outcome of a new plan.
Dollar wise, what do you bring to the table?
takes some self analysis.
Cheers
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
The original question covers about everything so the door is open to ramble.
This has nothing to do with pricing but your main piece of safety equipment your attitude. Yes it's dangerous what isn't? Banana peels, upside down rakes. I feel calling it dangerous leaves you working scared. That creates it's own hazard. You gotta be the boss of yourself first.
This has nothing to do with pricing but your main piece of safety equipment your attitude. Yes it's dangerous what isn't? Banana peels, upside down rakes. I feel calling it dangerous leaves you working scared. That creates it's own hazard. You gotta be the boss of yourself first.
- Location
- Phoenix Arizona
$1.75
- Location
- Pukalani, Hawaii
oh no, huff has a tough market! you must need a snorkle to survive!
- Location
- Phoenix Arizona
I do it for the kids. I have no health insurance. And my chipper is a 6 inch
- Location
- Phoenix Arizona
No seriously. 25 an hour is what I made at TCI dude. Its also what I peaked out at here in the Valley of the Sun. Its not a bad wage. You want more and you have to bring more to the table and I am talking about insurance and tools.Just climbing? eh. Thats your job. Its dangerous. Big deal. 25 an hour is pretty maxed out as far as what I have seen from coast to coast and you sir....may have a LITTLE ways to go before you hit 25. Id give ya 18 if you could hang for a while....but ya, no way Id start someone green like you at more than 18. Dont get me wrong. Im green too...but in a 25 dollar an hour way
