tripping a widow maker

I thought I could "Paint" the way to reduce the angle on a "walk down", but my Paint-ing started to look Picasso.

I'll try to verbalize it.

With the tree hung, and getting more vertical from "walking it down" or "tripping" it, the underside is tensioned, and the top compressed. If you cut a back cut in the top side, inserting wedges, then cut the face on the bottom side, leaving a good, and thin hinge, you can bang the wedges into the backcut to force the kerf open and the face to begin to close. This will bow the tree outward/ upward, with single or stacked wedges, until the down pressure from the weight of the tree closed the face, pushing it away from the stationary tree. The butt of the log will hold in place on the ground, and the tree should fall away from the stationary tree. You can have you ear protection removed, allowing you to hear and watch as you pound the wedges. The tree will have to be somewhat upright, for this to work (if it isn't somewhat upright, you can still "walk it down" another time or two).

You will clearly have a harder time with larger trees, and multiple single wedges, or multiple stacked sets of wedges will likely be needed, but no more gear than a feller would normally have. Maybe if you are production felling for logging you would not have a ton of wedges on hand. We had a 10 person crew, so we could get a few from others working nearby. I don't know what logging feller carry for wedges.

If you have a rope, you can tie it near the face and pull, or tensioned to another tree and push down on the rope to magnify your force. This might only mean having a short piece of rope rather than what an urban/ suburban tree crew would typically be carrying.


If you want the butt to move to the side, instead of straight back, opposite the stationary tree, you can do the same, but turned 90 degrees. You will be working "sideways" to the compression/ tension. As always, watch your kerf, and wedge as needed. This may work better on the larger trees, as you are not lifting the tree, but rather moving it sideways. You will have some lowering of the angle, but not as much as if you can move it straight back, opposite the stationary tree.

I imagine that you will be able to work somewhere between the direct and perpendicular directions relative to the lean.

Sorry, no pictures, and this would be hard to recreate, unless we get a good storm.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
beach_rolly_all_blue.jpg


Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

Real loggers don't use beach rollys, Tom.

You of all people should know that, being such a nerd and all.

SZ

[/ QUOTE ]

All right then...

skidder.jpg
 
Seems like Kevin has a pretty good handle on the situation. My pull back technique is one way, keeping an undercut low is my main way. And like Kevin said earlier every situation may need a different cut on a different side.

Basically it's like everything we do. No rush, think it through, smaller is safer. And be ready to adapt. To follow a text book and do the key notch for example may work most of the time but that once when there is pressure from a direction you didn't expect could be the one.

Throwing a slow low cut into it will let you safely feel the direction of pressure and how to procede.
 
USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!

USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!

USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!

USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!
USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!USE GRAVITY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHENEVER POSSIBLE!!!
 
That top strap would prevent an end bind.

I haven't experienced end binds when cutting dead vertically. If you are working off vertical, you will definitely get end binds.

Gravity works to your advantage in all of these techniques, aside from lifting a saw up very high.

When the tree becomes upright, after some "walking down" it puts the sawyer under the hung and stationary trees somewhat, where loose limbs can come down, and when too many walk-downs occur, the tree can drop into a vertical orientation, and then have no commitment to any falling lane, so the sawyer can't have much for pre-determined, obstruction-cleared escape paths.



Can anyone explain what purpose the wedge is serving in Burnham's pic? Wedging in from that angle would look to me like it would make the final half of the backcut more likely to side bind. I am SURE Burnham knows just what he is doing, and not using a bad technique. I just don't gather what his purpose is. (I'll PM Burnham after work, if nobody explains it.)



I can see that in addition to being farther out and safer by using the tip of his bar, leaving a hinge will cause it to fold a bit slower (more time to step back), and have a blunt end to drop on the asphalt, rather than a "spear".
 
[ QUOTE ]
...Can anyone explain what purpose the wedge is serving in Burnham's pic? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like he's cutting half-way through and wedging the bad side, then tripping the good side so the butt will tend to fall away from him. Nice technique, IMO.
 
Bump for a clear explanation of the way to control the aspect of a hung tree while walking it down. Easily understood...at least for me, as I've done that exact method for years[ QUOTE ]
I thought I could "Paint" the way to reduce the angle on a "walk down", but my Paint-ing started to look Picasso.

I'll try to verbalize it.

With the tree hung, and getting more vertical from "walking it down" or "tripping" it, the underside is tensioned, and the top compressed. If you cut a back cut in the top side, inserting wedges, then cut the face on the bottom side, leaving a good, and thin hinge, you can bang the wedges into the backcut to force the kerf open and the face to begin to close. This will bow the tree outward/ upward, with single or stacked wedges, until the down pressure from the weight of the tree closed the face, pushing it away from the stationary tree. The butt of the log will hold in place on the ground, and the tree should fall away from the stationary tree. You can have you ear protection removed, allowing you to hear and watch as you pound the wedges. The tree will have to be somewhat upright, for this to work (if it isn't somewhat upright, you can still "walk it down" another time or two).

You will clearly have a harder time with larger trees, and multiple single wedges, or multiple stacked sets of wedges will likely be needed, but no more gear than a feller would normally have. Maybe if you are production felling for logging you would not have a ton of wedges on hand. We had a 10 person crew, so we could get a few from others working nearby. I don't know what logging feller carry for wedges.

If you have a rope, you can tie it near the face and pull, or tensioned to another tree and push down on the rope to magnify your force. This might only mean having a short piece of rope rather than what an urban/ suburban tree crew would typically be carrying.


If you want the butt to move to the side, instead of straight back, opposite the stationary tree, you can do the same, but turned 90 degrees. You will be working "sideways" to the compression/ tension. As always, watch your kerf, and wedge as needed. This may work better on the larger trees, as you are not lifting the tree, but rather moving it sideways. You will have some lowering of the angle, but not as much as if you can move it straight back, opposite the stationary tree.

I imagine that you will be able to work somewhere between the direct and perpendicular directions relative to the lean.

Sorry, no pictures, and this would be hard to recreate, unless we get a good storm.

[/ QUOTE ]
 
It appears he's trying to dutch the face and nipping away at the hinge wood but it looks like a good way to pinch the bar.
The wedges are probably there for end bind but they would cause more bind to the opposite side of the tree which will get the bar pinched where it is.
The bar is somewhat at an angle so the pinch would be a little less.
I wouldn't have taken a picture of that, (not saying I haven't done the same) but I do like the lower cuts he's using.
 
When I've felled hung trunks/limbs I try to visualize the direction of the tension/compression. Then think of the solution in a different plane. Instead of a vertical trunk with head/back/side lean the hung wood has a load in it. How do I factor that into a felling plan?

Most of the time a face cut is needed in the direction that the trunk/limb will fall towards.

Accounting for gravity along with tension/compression makes things tricky.

There isn't a lot of practice time for felling lodged trunks. They just don't come up that often. In order to practice I look for similar situations. After flopping a tree there are generally a few limbs that are under tension. I try to think of them as lodged, which they are. How is the tension relieved and the limb rolled or felled?

Working with a straight blade handsaw is a good way to practice.

What I have found is that leaving a strap on the tension side acts like a barber chair. it's rare that a barber chair allows for a controlled fell whether its inside or on the outside of the tree.
 
That was about 99% of my work clearing hung trees on communication cables for many years.
I get a few hung working in the cedar swamps during the winter because there just aren't enough openings until you start clearing some trees.
The three main methods I use are nipping at the hinge on one side to get the tree to roll out, use a cant hook to roll it out or use another tree to knock it down which usually isn't an option for an arborist .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzHRqDVPxsU
 
tom, that beach cart couldnt even make it off the landing at this job, the four wheeler couldnt make it off the main skid trail... We are talking steep, wading through slash all day logging. Not cutting in the backyard.
I would love to have GRCS in the woods. But its totally impractical, besides I lose my gas can at least 2 x a day under slash. Dont thing 3 grand tool floating around the woods on the ground would be a good thing...
Sean I tried your wedging method today, it works great, but really can take some wedge pounding... I.E. Time.
Daniel, I used your method as well, and am really liking it. I like how you can set both hinges, step back, look, move back in trip the hinge and move away. It just takes a bit of adjustment between tree species...
If I could stop hanging trees up I wouldnt need any of this crap huh?
Oh, Blinky, the ol hole in the tree with the pole to spin it is a classic, but try explaining the hole to the mill...
 
[ QUOTE ]
That was about 99% of my work clearing hung trees on communication cables for many years.
I get a few hung working in the cedar swamps during the winter because there just aren't enough openings until you start clearing some trees.
The three main methods I use are nipping at the hinge on one side to get the tree to roll out, use a cant hook to roll it out or use another tree to knock it down which usually isn't an option for an arborist .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzHRqDVPxsU

[/ QUOTE ]

Kevin, nice Darth Vader style helmet, do you have one that comes out of your helmet and becomes a cape so you can make sweeping movements with the saw in high winds like this - actually I believe the person in this video is Daniel Murphy -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4QTyUGYW0&feature=related



grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
tom, that beach cart couldnt even make it off the landing at this job, the four wheeler couldnt make it off the main skid trail... We are talking steep, wading through slash all day logging. Not cutting in the backyard.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how do you get the logs to the skid trail? Horses? I do think that Xman's suggestion of some extra rigging rope & fiddle blocks is a good sub for the heavier gear. I agree the GRCS is cumbersome, I just threw the idea out there without thinking, but realistically... If you needed it 10% of the time, could you figure out a way to make it work?

Also, not all logging jobs are the same, right? It sounds like you are dealing with a particularly tough one right now.

-Tom
 
Tom,
A cable skidder (On this job) pulls the wood to the landing via spur trails (think tributary), to a main trail then takes them to a landing where they are processed to length and trucked off accordingly.
I am a subcontractor feller. I have no connection with the machinery. I am there to fell trees that are painted with a blue spot by a forester. I fell them in the most efficient (in theory) manner to leave the least amount of residual stand damage, and be accessable by cable from the skidders winch, operated by someone else...
Cable skidders are used on terrain that other machines cannot reach cos of the topography (steep hills etc), the cable can be dragged to log from up to 75 feet away and then chained and winched to the arch of the skidder.
So we are working on pretty variable terrain, in Vermont it is very rare to be hand felling timber on flat ground (because of machine accessability), so we hand fallers are up on the stuff they cant get. So yeah I would say its pretty typical for the area.
I appreciate suggestions, I think that I will start looking at my situations a bit differently and think about the possibility of incorporating a fiddle block. I do carry a small daypack. I am worried about time wasting... But will try and put into active thought and see how many times a day I could actually really need it. Seems about once... but I'll see.
 
this is the particular cable skidder a Timberjack 260 , It has ten sliders (attatchments for choker chains), so it can move a lot of wood. But is actually quite a small cable skidder by todays standards.
 

Attachments

  • 245099-DSCN0097.webp
    245099-DSCN0097.webp
    38.6 KB · Views: 87

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom