Treesitter Injured

That's ridiculous. I mean really, come on! As to the "wagon wheel maker", last I checked, we drove cars, but we still live in houses. Houses are still constructed of a minimum of 50% wood products, including celulose insulation, this includes houses being framed with steel studs (a non-renewable resourse by the way!). Somebody tell me if I am wrong here, but, I am sure that the redwoods in question are NOT old growth, and were planted by the logging company in question, maintained by the logging company in question, in order to be harvested by the logging company in question and stand on the logging company in questions property. Right?
You also reenforced my statement about the silver spoon stuff if you have all kinds of money and time to go teach the world how to interfere with guys making a paycheck by setting up tree to tree ziplines and other foolishness. Break your own neck and leave me out of it. Would it be better for you people if we all just moved into tents and ceased reproducing? Sacrafice our children to the grizzley's, wolves and cougers to please the "Gods of Nature"? After all, they were here first right? Come on! Balance! I hope that (if you are in the industry) you walk to work, make your wife and kids do the same, only use solar or wind energy to power anything you own (lighting cooking fires would endanger trees/shrubs as well as put carpenter ants out of a potential home, not to mention termites), don't own anything made of leather, use only handsaws to cut with (plastic handled of course) and have never removed a tree in your life. All you do is run around like Johny Appelseed, spreading seeds and talking with the little happy forest creatures in the hope that maybe someday, if you are really really lucky, one of your trees may fall on someone in natures effort to aid in population control. Is this stupid yet?
Balance people! Like it or not, we are the dominant species on this planet. We are the care takers of this place and we got to this level for a variety of reasons, clearly not all of them noble and good, but now we are the ones responsible of taking care of the mess.
We need wood, we need steel, we need plastic. Imagine your life without it. These are all things that we must learn to harvest and use in a responsible way. We sure aren't right now. Ceasing use of any or all of these products is also not the responsible thing to do is it. If you tree sitters would work on helping to find/invent stuff to help with these things instead of hanging around not washing your hair so you can have cooler dread locks or whatever else you do, maybe finding responsible alternitives would be a bit easier. You seem smart enough to figure out how to chain yourselves to trees in ways that no one can get you free from without power equipment, help with something a little more long term, like a realistic compromise. Compromise is the key word here people. It's not going to be your way, it doesn't have to be logging corps way either, it has to be somewhere in the middle. Untill ALL you "better than thou's" get off your high horses, it's pretty much a stand off isn't it?
 
You lost me, Jon.

You asked to be corrected, so for the record, most of the trees activists were plucked out of and cut down in the spring of 2003 were old-growth. The oldest one was 1,600 years old.

Corporate CEO’s are not concerned about the future or stability of jobs held by guys “just trying to feed their family.” Maxxam has looted a lifetime worth of jobs in the name of short-term profit. Shortly after the take over of Pacific Lumber, Maxxam CEO Charles Hurwitz raided the worker’s pension fund, stealing millions from them.

Who are you advocating for here? Downstream residents, many of them who have been working their land for generations to feed their families are being screwed out of their way of life because of mis-management of the forest on the hillsides above them. Here in Humboldt, heavily logged slopes caused a massive landslide and debris torrent that wiped out SEVEN houses on New Year’s Day 1997. What do you say to those people? Should we tell them “sorry – gotta clear-cut them hills to fill the pockets of a Texas corporate raider”? Timber workers have been forced to cut themselves out of work, and the only people that benefits are corporate suits pulling the strings. This is not the work of people “taking care of the mess,” this is the work of corporate management squeezing every dime out of both forest and labor. You’re living in a dream if you think clear-cutting and poisoning the land is going to make anyone safer in the future.

I agree that we must find responsible alternatives to the way we live, and I also think we need to stop the damage now. This is not something to be addressed after every last old-growth tree is cut, the salmon are all dead (remember the fishing communities) and the water is too polluted to drink.

By the way, we cannot sacrifice our children to the grizzly bears or wolves because they have been extirpated in California. They were wiped out by what you called the “dominant species” (by which I suppose you mean white people, since there were humans living here along with grizzly’s and wolves less than two hundred years ago).

Remedy
 
These are some of the trees that JonI Mitchell sang about being in a "tree museum" before "the big yellow taxi took away her old man."

Humans save and restore many other things. Drop into any museum and you'll see things that have relavence to someone. Sports mean little to nothing to me but they are pretty important to many people. Those people make pilgrimages to Eveleth, MN to see the giant hockey stick at the hockey hall of fame. Isn't the football museum in Akron? Look at how many people spend bushels of money on NASCAR. What does any of us value? What would it take to call any of us to action?

Hey, I know what! TCIA has scheduled another Day of Service for October. It will be the Saturday of TCI weekend in Detroit. What a way for us to celebrate trees. After being part of the one at ARlington about six years ago I know that I won't miss this one. That was one of the proudest days of my life as an arborist. Being welcomed by Glen Riggs and the Philly boys was wonderful.
 
I am in no way advocating for the American logging industry, like I said before, I think American logging practices are basically land rape and therefore very irresponsible. However, without an employer, you have a bunch of people without work right?
I actually spent five years working the forest in the Swiss alps, those people are so far ahead of us that it's rediculous. Forests are measured for average growth rates and only 80 percent of the actual growth rate is harvested over a period of time. There, methods actually promote old growth through very selective harvesting regime. There are no clear cuts, there is no burning slash or piling slash with dozers while ruining the the natural biology, texture etc of the soil. Everything is done by hand. We planted around stumps, we mowed out saplings in spring and fall (with scythes) we thined etc etc. The harvest always consisted of the trees that were in the worst shape, while leaving the best trees to serve as mother trees and the list could go on forever. It was great! I loved it. We were doing things right and for the best for the forest. We made NO PROFIT and this was the important part I think. We sold our timber to the mills, the mills were the ones trying to turn a profit. We were trying to pay for our labor and we were still govt subsidized because our harvest still didn't cover our wages.
I think that if the USFS had turned itself into this way of operating, the US would be in great shape. Instead, everything is contracted out. Private companies have bought up huge masses of property so they can do what every company needs to do... turn a profit. The USFS is almost being fazed out. I find it somewhat revolting and tragic that the US went this way.
All this being here nor there in this argument, wherever these loggers are coming from it really doesn't matter. That Maxuum is turning a profit, is good for employees and therefore the US economy to some extent.
I just don't think that sitting in trees is getting us where we need to be. For the most part, working guys are just going to laugh at the guys sitting, the loggers are going to resent the heck out of them and get them down one way or another, probably that much worse for wear. Nothing is going to change. All the millions of dollars that you say the logging corps have spent trying to create animosity between the huggers and the loggers will remain an investment well spent.
Sitting in trees will not change a thing. The loggers wouldn't be logging the trees if someone hadn't given them the green light (if they were paid to do so by the corp or not). Best to figure out how to fix the light, rather than sit in it.
I just think that you sitters solution is a foolish one, and is perhaps helping feed the fire of resentment. At least fewer of you are spiking the trees than in the past. Driving spikes into something you were trying to save never seemed like a brilliant brainstorm to me, but hey, maybe that's just me? I do wonder how long it will take untill someone drops one of the trees someone is sitting in or has zip lined them self to. It would seem that it's rather inevitable at this rate.
I do want to thank you for starting this thread. This has probably been one of the most heated discusions ever to take place on here. Not to mention one that has so many different opinions to it. Most of them very far left or very far right.
I have to say thanks for the correction by the way. I didn't realize that it was actual old growth that was being harvested. My understanding was that all old growth redwood trees were protected, and that felling them could only be done under special hazard type circumstances. I must admitt that that rather burns me, though I don't find tree sitting to be any smarter or relevent regardless. I certainly don't think it helps create much in the way of public sympathy or support. But hey, if it's how we can help more people get motivated to climb, why not huh?
How do you feel about siberian elms? I have a bunch to remove next week. I could use a climber to spell me if you are interested in actually using your climbing skills for some cash! I would need you to cut them though, I don't have time on my crews for sitters. I send the lazy ones down the road real quick.
 
Before Maxaam bought out Pacific Lumber Co. they, PCL, did a fine job of harvesting a sustained yield. They would calculate the growth increase on their lands and match the harvest. Sounds similar to what you experienced in Switzerland. At the same time, PCL turned a profit and provided lots of jobs. Along with sustained yields they managed sustained jobs. Maxaam is a robber baron of the lowest degree.

Spiking trees went out of use as a practice MANY years ago. There was a terrible accident in a CA mill probably close to 20 years ago now. Earth First! and the other environmental action groups quit advocating spiking. When was the last time anyone heard about tree-spiking?
 
Wow, hearing about the type of forestry done in the Swiss Alps is encouraging. That’s great that you worked with scythes – more labor intensive than a chainsaw but better for the land. It makes me sad and angry that logging in the US (and many other places) is so destructive and profit driven. So much damage has already been done, and this summer is going to be awful for forests here in the Northwest. It is a shame, and criminal.

As far as Maxxam goes, turning a profit for them has not been good for the employees – the labor and working class. Most of the money made from the incredible damage done here goes to Houston corporados. Meanwhile, hundreds of workers have lost their jobs and the county is broke. Pacific Lumber, before Maxxam, owned one of the last company owned towns – the company was not only your employer but your landlord, too. When the big layoffs happened in December 2001 (three weeks before Christmas), there were some who not only lost their jobs, but also had thirty days to clear out of the house they had lived in for decades. There is no love for the workers when it comes to corporate timber.

What you said about loggers’ not cutting trees unless someone gives them the green light is very important. They get the green light here from the California Department of Forestry. CDF is just as responsible for liquidation logging as Maxxam, SPI, and other corporations that exploit the forest. Maxxam has racked up 325 violations against environmental laws since 1999, and yet NOT ONCE has CDF denied them a Timber Harvest Plan. As I said earlier, over 70% of those violations negatively impacted water quality, obviously affecting not only people who live here, but also those who rely on water that passes through these areas (and, of course, the salmon).

I agree that treesitting is not the answer to “save the forest” or stopping the vast amount of damage being done. I chose to do a treesit because I wanted to put the spotlight on the people and places that richly deserved it – Freshwater Creek, which has been compared to “brownfields” or superfund clean-up sites by the California EPA because of extreme sediment impairment; Maxxam, a Texas corporation that continues to destroy creeks, rivers and old-growth forest to the detriment of the people and animals that live here; CDF, a government arm funded by tax-payers (us) whose inappropriate relationship with big timber is corrupt and needs severe scrutiny; and the ancient redwoods, like the one I sat in for 361 days without touching the ground, that continue to be cut down. There are so few left. The numbers vary, but it is generous to say 3% remain from what was here 154 years ago. You yourself said you didn’t know the ancient redwoods were still being cut, and you are not alone. Maxxam, who is the owner (by fraud) of the largest number of unprotected ancient coastal redwoods left on the planet, enjoys and profits from the public’s misinformation about this. If I’ve done nothing more than raise awareness, then that is something.

Not all the attention treesitters get is negative. During my treesit I heard from people all over the country who were thankful I was doing what I was doing. Many of them didn’t know the big trees were still being cut.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, and thanks for the job offer. If you were in the neighborhood I might take you up on it.

Remedy
 
It's true that Pacific Lumber before Maxxam was a pretty responsible land owner. The old president, Mr. Murphy, had seen in the Midwest that over-cutting was the bane of the timber worker. So when he became president of PL, he discontinued clear-cutting, leaving jobs and forest for the future.

The only people I know of who spike trees now are the company themselves. They are fond of nailing all sorts of stuff to the trees. I have video shot from 130 feet up of them pounding nails in the trees they mean to harvest. But now that they are moving toward automated mills, there is less chance someone will get hurt (because there are fewer workers).

Remedy
 
not to change the subject but i think the posts on this thread have to go down as the longests in tree buzz history!!!!!!. its been very exausting keeping up with it.
 
I'm with you there , If I was sitting in a tree trying to save it and the "west Coast tree bullies" showed up ,the games would begin. When I was a kid me and my brother , we climbed on manila , would "try" and cut each other's lines with pole clips . It was all fun , but I think it would be hard to get someone out of tree who was a "spiderman". What kind of clown doesnt know they don't have enough rope to get out of a tree? can't save a tree if you can't save yourself.call this thread treesitter stupid.
 
Those climbers are very dangerous there are 9 of them some may be among us. The people who sit in those trees use two points of safty all the time on the ropes. Then these climbers who claim they're arborists and there for the peoples safty come up and force people into percarious positions. They lowered a fella who was attached to a 500lb barrel if that barrel had fallen his arms would have fallen off. One women was forced to the top of a Red wood on a dead branch and belayed from the top with no backup safty. These climbers are very dangerous and should be talked to these people need therepy reguardless if there is a demand for lumber, murder is murder,
 
TreeBuzz was created to bring arborits together to share innovations in gear, discuss tree related issues and report on happinings in the arborist industry.
What it is not here to do is be a forum to bad mouth fellow arborists.
Should anyone be interested in a FACTUAL account of the "tree extractors"and how they operate you can go back through past posts and figure out if there are any that post on this board and contact them directly.
I object to this account of the extractors. It is NOT FACTUAL and you dont have to be for or against the issue to learn the facts, just ask.

Frans
 
I think the extractions of treesitters by arborists is appropriate conversation for this forum.

There are two sides to every story. If you are interested in THE FACTS, I would suggest getting accounts from both sides, and checking into the video documentation of the extractions. I have read through previous threads on this forum and others about the extractions, and have found assertions that were NOT FACTUAL.

There are several things that happened during treesit extractions that the arborist community should not be proud of (unless you're of the mind that treesitters should be killed or seriously injured). And since there may be extractions of treesitters in the future, it is important to discuss what happened (and is happening).

Remedy
 
Remedy,
Please, please dont slander folks without giving the entire story.
I did not say this was a bad place to discuss tree realated issues. Just please dont slam folks without revealing the entire story O.K. ?
It is not my place to get into this discussion because I dont have first hand personal knowledge, but you apparently were their, so maybe you could reveal the entire story so folks could make up their minds.
You are in a discussion site where the stated purpose is perserving trees, safety in arboriculture etc etc so this is a good place to talk about this type of thing just not indiscrimately slamming folks.
Please check your private messages (PM) I have left you a message more fully explaining myself but I very respectfully request you keep these more in depth conversations with me off this board.
By the way I have no real power to enforce my request, just one arborist to another...
Thanks
Frans
ps I have also sent a PM to "wolverine"
 
Frans,

I don't believe I have indiscriminately slandered anyone. With so many treesit extractions, it would be difficult to tell the "whole story" - which I take to mean the details of each extraction. My initial post was regarding an incident that happened here recently, that did not involve treesit extractions. I have addressed those topics as they have come up. But if anyone has specific questions about the treesit extractions, they are welcome to send me a personal message, as you have done, or to continue the discussion here.

Remedy
 
I was not tring to bad mouth anyone. Those so called arborists assulting people in a tree doesn't need any bad mouthing it is bad! Concerning tree work all of this does apply tree work is one of the most dangerous jobs we all know this, people getting paid to climb is tree work and for these people to risk peoples lives and there lives,yes we all should be concerned! I do tree work and I am proud to,and cutting trees is something that I do,but I also have protested and seen the dangerous practices of these climbers. This is a very valid thing to talk about. So if you don't want to read it why do you reply so much? That is what I wonder.
 
Just to stir the pot, on the other hand, if an "extractor" gets killed trying to remove a sitter, and he was hired by the propety owner, would the sitter be prosecuted? It would seem to me, be it right or wrong, that through these types of measures (fighting for their cause) sitters may also be endangering others as well. It is more complicated on many levels than meets the eye.

Like you all have said , there are two sides to each battle.
 
After checking my PMs again for the last post I did, I wonder if any of these so-called-treesitters are employed, or do they just glam on someone elses buck to stand for what is a losing battle to begin with.

If I am a NJ redneck, than so be it. There are better things these said intelligent people could be doing. How about forming a small business in Washington so the cost of living is more than what I make sleeping in on a Saturday?

Hippie protesters have pissed me off since Vietnam and I was not even alive then.

My 2 cents
 
i hear ya trevor and mark, thats why i feel these topics have no place in this forum. i feel this forum is a venue for all of us in this industry to share our knowledge and make our industry a safer more intelligent work place as well as getting to know are fellow arbo's around the globe. these topics only produce finger pointing and name calling. as i kept up with this topic and put many man hours in reading these posts i find it is getting uglier by the day and this subject is getting off track. the thing i find the most hillarious is that most maybe not all but most of these tree sitters are not in the industry and the only thing they have in common with us is trees are involved. i would like to say that most arborists are doing this is for the same reason i am and that is for the love of the trees and the great outdoors. sure i have taken my share of trees down in my 21 years in this business and most of them were for reasons of saftey or the tree was dead . but for every tree i have taken down i have saved and helped hundreds contiue to thrive. so for some person to call me a hipocrit because i have taken trees down and compare me or someone in this industry to a corporate land clearing rapist has no business being in this forum because they clearly do not have a clue as to what we are about. as i said in my previous posts on this topic there are other ways for these protesters to help get thier message heard they do not have to come to forums like these and stir up the bees nest. i also do not need someone to make me aware of something that i been doing for the majority of my life and that is preserving trees and that is also partly to why forums like this allready exist. and i also think the use of private messages should pertain to more important uses such as personal information and conversations i do not think it is hear to send targeted personal attacks to posters because i am not going to say specifically who but since this thread started there is a specific someone whos been real busy with this option .
 
Hi Mark,

You said: "if an "extractor" gets killed trying to remove a sitter, and he was hired by the propety owner, would the sitter be prosecuted?"

I think the answer would be yes. In fact, treesitters were warned about making the situation more dangerous than it already was, and that we would face stiff prosecution if that happened. Unfortunately, this warning was only given to us, and not to the extractors.

Liability is in question in these matters. Generally speaking, if you contract out a person or business to do something that is inherently dangerous, the liability falls back on the company who did the hiring, not the contractor. Treesit extractions are inherently dangerous.

Remedy
 
Hi Blue Fin,

You said: "so for some person to call me a hipocrit because i have taken trees down and compare me or someone in this industry to a corporate land clearing rapist has no business being in this forum because they clearly do not have a clue as to what we are about. "

I don't recall anyone saying this about you or arborists in general.

I know several people who have been treesitters and who have done or are still doing work as arborists.

You can't keep a tree lover down.

Remedy
 
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