Suckers - What do you tell the client?

Dave, enjoy the ride! I guess that stone tablet has crumbled.

You might now be differentiating between sprouts from newly formed, adventitious buds vs. preformed, dormant buds, with "suppressed" vs. "elite". If so, I entirely agree! Didn't hear you say that before
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"Myths start when people use terms they cannot define" (A. Shigo, page 10)

96 credit hours in college here--you wanna pull out yours and have a tinkling contest? I took advantage of several opportunities to get "eaten up", by asking him challenging questions. The bites went both ways, but I'll spare you the the gory details--Dice nihil sed bonum mortui.

Bottom line was--nobody knows it all, or *knew* it all! You can take people's words as fact just because of who they are or were, but you won't do any favors for them, or their memory, or your own understanding.

I'm gonna go squeeze a tree.
 
[ QUOTE ]
In the immortal words of one Eric (ekka) Frei...Owner of Tree World..."I know more than Shigo does" hahahaha

[/ QUOTE ]Oh, Dave. Dude! All this was ready to slide, then you go and play the Pekka card, lumping me with that rotund megalomaniac. OK, just one iconoclastic anecdote, from a public encounter. what happened in private stays in private: ;)

Columbia SC, mid-1990s, some ag ext bldg. Shigo packs it; they're standing in the back. After railing against soil compaction, he says the best we can do is toss down woodchips and earthworms. A hand down front goes up. "Uhh, Dr. Shigo, what if the tree can't wait for mulch and worms, and needs a faster solution?"

"There is no faster solution; nature must take its course. What else can you do?" Fool that I was and am, I did not suspect that was a rhetorical question.

"Well, if you swing a pick into the ground to aerate it, then take compo..."

Red spread across his forehead, those eyes bugged out even more, and my icon was tarnished in a moment. "No!! You do not want to damage the roots like that. If the tree is too far gone, it's too far gone." he said, as he sought out the next hand. {Thank goodness he did not sing the forester's Death with Dignity tune; I might've done a Bobby Knight on my chair.}

So now 16 years later, aeration and inoculation and soil replacement are routine. Lots of research on that in the interim, but it was not needed to do this common and commonsense practice. Heck, in MN this past winter I met a guy named Ostvig, who showed me a pic from 1938, of his (grand?)dad and the crew, doing soil replacement.
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I don't know who knows more than who, but no one knows it all. Definitely no one knew enough in 1986 to be up to date in 2012. Put down the memorabilia long enough to read something from this millennium. Try touching a tree. Ya try to run; try to hide--Break on through to the other side!
 
hmmmmmmmmmm? methinks we get the Dr. Shigo...young Docto...errr 96 credit Guy Meilleur story whatever is said?

uh yahhh...you and a football stadium full of students standing at the feet of the Master Sensei of the tree care world (pioneer of data on wounding and producer of oceans of research on wounding effects) likely in a class mostly dedicated in part to wounding and its consequences and you volunteer...

Hey Al, why's not we take a pick...

arbitrarily gouge holes in the entire root system (whose gonna know since it is hidden by dirt..right?), on this tree struggling to survive

sending it further into stress having to compartmentalize every wound and robbing it of any residual storage it has saved for defense and leaving it open to disease attack...? huh al?...whadya think al?...

then maybe we carve my name on the trunk with the pick ax so's nobody steals mah client.

aaaarrrrrgggghhhh.....put on the dunce cap and go sit in the back corner if you can move some of my admirers outta the way.
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http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=3053&Type=2
 
Sensei had feet of clay, and limited experience, just like every other human. He'd be the first to discourage your deification of him and his work. He'd tell you to pull your head out of his a$$ and check his sources, and all the work done since his time, and THINK FOR YOURSELF.

"arbitrarily gouge holes in the entire root system (whose gonna know since it is hidden by dirt..right?)"

Wrong. this work is systematic, not arbitrary, if you read the easy-to-follow guidance in ANSI A300 Part 2 (2011). If you can afford the $15, join the new millennium.

if you want to rail against root invigoration and soil replacement, you'll need more than an irrelevant watson paper about severing roots at the flare(?!?), because you are taking on a large industry. Here's a more relevant watson paper; you're welcome!

http://auf.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?Jou...ue=5&Type=1
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sensei had feet of clay, and limited experience, just like every other human. He'd be the first to discourage your deification of him and his work. He'd tell you to pull your head out of his a$$ and check his sources, and all the work done since his time, and THINK FOR YOURSELF.

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Limited experience...ha! At what? Relative to you?

I think you need to pull your head outta your own as s because you are in a very small club if that club has anything but total respect for the late Dr. Alex Shigo. I know he hurt your feelings and embarrassed you in front of a group of arborists but he may not even known that and just wanted to move on and stay on task. He was not like that. I spent a lot of time in his presence from meeting him in 1980 to his passing a few years ago. My wife worked for the airlines and I was able to follow him to many different places with free flights over 25 plus years. I doubt if any arborist anywhere sees your contribution of articles as looming larger than his legacy in retrospect...you don't?...do you?

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"arbitrarily gouge holes in the entire root system (whose gonna know since it is hidden by dirt..right?)"

Wrong. this work is systematic, not arbitrary, if you read the easy-to-follow guidance in ANSI A300 Part 2 (2011). If you can afford the $15, join the new millennium.

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I have purchased every standard and revision from ANSI since soon after published. Maybe YOU need to follow the guidance since your name is on it as an "observer"...

A300 Pt. 2 2011 Soil Management...a. Modification......

14.7.9.3 "Pneumatic soil loosening should be considered the preferred method to mitigate compacted soil within the root zones of plants...."

14.7.9.7 "Under existing plants when mechanical loosening is impractical, organic mulch should be applied to mitigate compaction in time (worms not a bad idea either...re Shigo)"

(and when a tree is teetering on death, don't waste the client's hard earned money with esoteric treatments that you later say "hey we tried"...let it go...Treevet advice to Treeseer)

14.7.9.8 "Under existing plants, compacted soil should be remediated within the affected root zone area using methods that minimize injury to roots. Remediation includes one or more of the following:

Loosening; Amending; Replacing

Nothing mentioned bout pilfering the root area with a pick axe or detonating small explosives ...re Meilleur.

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if you want to rail against root invigoration and soil replacement, you'll need more than an irrelevant watson paper about severing roots at the flare(?!?), because you are taking on a large industry. Here's a more relevant watson paper; you're welcome!

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The article illustrated the consequences of root damage quite well and notably like many arboricultural articles referenced Shigo research as well. Many researchers cite Shigo research and there is nothing but unwavering respect in the Arb. scientific community for the late Dr. Shigo outside of your self important world.

Stop looking for notoriety by poo poo ing Shigo's documented scientific peer reviewed work on issues such as tree paint and topping and stub retention, etc., just because you can say "endo" and "epi" and "differentiate" and "dogma", etc etc and find a bandwagon with your own name on it. You're welcome for the advice in advance.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sensei had feet of clay, and limited experience, just like every other human. He'd be the first to discourage your deification of him and his work. He'd tell you to pull your head out of his a$$ and check his sources, and all the work done since his time, and THINK FOR YOURSELF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, Guy. I don't view treevet's many posts as Alex's deification. We both likely think of him as a good friend and mentor--who all simply respected each other with no delusions about walking in clouds.

It is unfortunate, equally as a Freudian slip is interesting, that you selected a$$ instead of azz--for example as I might have used. Either one gets us past the censorbots, but it is impossible to escape that reference to dollars.

Some sniff and smell money wherever it might be found; be careful not to get a$$ociated too much with that group.


[ QUOTE ]
Treevet: "arbitrarily gouge holes in the entire root system (whose gonna know since it is hidden by dirt..right?)"

-----------

Guy: If you want to rail against root invigoration and soil replacement, you'll need more than an irrelevant watson paper about severing roots at the flare(?!?), because you are taking on a large industry. Here's a more relevant watson paper; you're welcome!

Guy: Wrong. this work is systematic, not arbitrary, if you read the easy-to-follow guidance in ANSI A300 Part 2 (2011). If you can afford the $15, join the new millennium.

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Look Guy, I don't entirely understand the focus of treevet's swirl of posts here, but i agree you have no capacity to rank the relevance or timeliness of Gary Watson's work products. I don't say it as a criticim, but you are very practiced as a pop-up apologist; a defender of dogma and the establishment. I meself, am a contrarian and practiced in my way.

Since I've muttered extensively on sloppy words, let me excerpt some sections from Alex. (thanks to the archival efforts of John Keslick and family) (TCI 2001)

--------------------

Tree biology still has acceptance problems

As a young researcher, I went to wood meetings all over the world. Those meetings were all aimed at products, not living trees. It is difficult to believe that tree biology is "a new kid on the block." You will never learn about living things by studying dead things, or by calling living things by names that belong to dead things!

Canker rots are all too common. Ring rots are the most economically damaging defects in pine. Fornes pini and its variants have been called the most economically damaging fungi in the world. Of interest is the damage caused by ring rots and canker rots in Eucalyptus species.

This fact is still not accepted. In 1980, I tried to publish a paper on compartmentalization in Eucalyptus species in Australia. The proposed paper was shot down in ways that made it impossible to fly again. The real problem there was not the acceptance of compartmentalization, but rather the fact that if they did, they would have to accept the cause - fire wounds.

----------Discussion---------

Before I end this discussion, let me say a few words about one of my favorite subjects - myths associated with terms.

The subject here is still canker rots. Let us look closely at this term. A canker is a localized lesion. A lesion is any dead spot. The lesion could completely cover an organism. Yet, when the lesion has definite limits or borders it is called a canker. Next, rot is a term indicating the breakdown process of wood. Rot is an ongoing or continuous type of process, or one that is spreading.

Now, look at the two words again. One means confining or limited, and the other means continuing or spreading. So, now we have a spreading confining term.

Such a term is called an oxymoron. To add more confusion to the subject, consider the term "sterile conk," given to some canker rots such as those incited by Inonotus obliquus (Poria obliqua) on species of Betula, and Poly porus glomeratus on species of Acer. A conk is a fertile fruit body.

So here we have a sterile fertile fruit body. Crazy? Oxymoron? Yes. No wonder there is confusion.



In 1990 or so, I asked seriously if Urban Forestry was an oxymoron. Turns out not-to-be politically correct to question it now. Ooops. Perhaps I'm too slow for the new millennium?


Bob Wulkowicz-up too late and out of date
 
I went thru week long "New Tree Biology" labs with only 25 students and a microscope for everyone in Boone, North Carolina with young Keslick. "We" all thought the guy had no clue and just didn't "get it". "From outer space" was one fellow student's appraisal I remember well.

Well I guess he DID get it. And I "got it" as well as did Wulky and everyone that took some time to study at the feet of the master....each in their own way. The ultimate teacher as his best friend Charley Owen always said of him.

"You may still be confused when you leave me...but you will be confused at a much higher level". "Most study what goes wrong with a tree but I wanted to study what goes right". RIP Alex Shigo...you certainly earned it. There are plenty of "us" that got your back.

http://www.shigoandtrees.com/index.php?_a=viewDoc&docId=5
 
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...you have no capacity to rank the relevance or timeliness of Gary Watson's work products. ...

[/ QUOTE ] Good Glory. One paper is about severing big woody roots at the flare. The other paper is about a process that damages fine roots. A 3rd grader has the capacity to know the difference--do you listen to yourself? A backhoe can be and has been used for this process--in formal research! Shovels are commonly used, and you want to roast me for using a pick?

Sorry but your matches are all wet.
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Funny you should mention canker rots in Australia--the genus Phellinus is the theme next month in a publication there. "Canker rot" may be oxymoronic, if one narrows the definitions enough. If it's such a misleading phrase, why is it used so much in ANTB? And in MA? Because it is a useful distinction. Arguing about precision is pointless, when accuracy is sufficient to do the work. "If it appears very complex, it is probably wrong." AE, via AS.

'Node' is another example of narrow definitions--is a node any growth point, or that point where the terminal bud was set? The latter is a useful distinction, but as an overall definition it does not work. The importance of nodes in pruning was a vital recognition Shigo made, but it got buried in the repetition by his thoughtless fans of the importance of the collar cut, *which only applies to lateral branches, NOT codominants*, and not large limbs.

I come to praise Caesar, not bury him. I praised his recognition of nodal pruning by pulling it out from under the NTP blanket. poo wha...? "...I cannot give you all the answers...I know *you will fill in the rest.* That is the way this educational system should work." AS.

"About the A300 and specs: Lawyer up. You mean you didn't spell out the objectives??? Really? YOU ARE SO BAD! No soup for you! I will get back to you on 5.1.1 after I go and look it up... OMG, the estimate is FREE for crying out loud. Change the industry protocol to cover my hour and a half and I will be happy to write it down in this way (well, not really HAPPY about it)."

fireaxe, you're right, full specs do not go in every estimate, and it's a challenge to condense effectively. Scope, objectives, and specs can all be spelled out in a work order. A template can cut that 90 minutes down to <9. Let me see what I can find on that.
 
Ben from over the pond...

Thanks for your phone message of support today. I agree...he is a wanker.

To you mate,
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give me a call again when I am home sometime.

cheers
 

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ps. Ben, don't have your phone # for a return call... got the motorcycle ride in and tell your fellow citizen John Bloor thanks for sending us such a great product, my bike. What kinda bike you got?

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pps. Wanker my word, not Ben's.
 

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crotch rockets suck give me a hog or something i can just cruise on . just one mans opinion . peace !
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Yeah, if I spent that much it'd probably pis s me off to get passed all the time too
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But, hey, any day riding is better than a day not riding.
 
i have a old harley from the 70's nothing fancy . no need for speed here i want to enjoy my ride not fly like a maniac . only paid $2000 for it bi- cenntenial model very limited on how many were produced . hoping it might be worth something someday . leaving everything i have for my daughter when i kick the bucket . just ride !!!
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this is my 4th Triumph Speed Triple, 98, 01, 05 and this 11. All had new technology. It is a very versatile bike that I can sight see with as it has high handle bars but also is very competent in the twisties which is a lot of fun to me. Not trying to impress anybody. I usually go by myself. If you take a ride on one and take it on some curvy roads you will be amazed at the balance and competence.

If I were to be able to afford long trips for a week or such I would definitely consider a Harley or the big Triumph cruiser both of which I considered when I bought this one instead. I had a 71 Triumph Bonneville new and that is why I looked into these again.

I would say there is no question your 70's Harley (must be a '76) will be worth quite a lot someday.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ben from over the pond...

Thanks for your phone message of support today. I agree...he is a wanker.

To you mate,
322436-drunk-cheers.gif


give me a call again when I am home sometime.

cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

What is with the phone response? It has no place on this forum.

Little sissy wants to say something about this thread then he can say it here.

Treevet you are the real WANKER for posting stuff like this. Shows that you are very insecure and pretty much a ******, looking for support.

Now about the topic;

I've been checking on this thread a few times. And every time I wanted to say, "screw the quotes from "famous" people. Talk about what you have personally experienced."

Too many people quote stuff that you read like it's the definite truth. I agree with Guy's approach.

I don't think I quote ANYONE. I say what i have witnessed.

I don't conform to anyone or any group. I am sure I could learn something from reading books, but I haven't had time. In a way, I think it is slightly beneficial in that I am not influenced by previous "thinkers".
 
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@x, I agree.....high school BS.

[/ QUOTE ]

nuther dumass meathead takedown hack

ohhh I just hate those guys that learn from the experts (makes me look bad)
 
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