Stupid arborist

Macswan, you are lucky that the frat boys didn't get ahold of your rope and use it in one of their initiations.

Thanks for the laugh. I needed to take my mind off things.
 
I don't think a smart, aware person would walk on a waterproof tarp with 'corks', without being told. Nor a typewriter, nor a rope.

Weeded him out.

He's worked a logging landing for a few months, which is why he had 'corks'.



Not standing on tools that aren't ladders, scaffolding, etc, is sign of a brain at work.


I describe things by name, color, and location to new guys.
"Would you please get the yellow pole with the aluminum hook attached, and the 4' yellow extension pole?
Passenger side of the bed, on the loft."

That didn't work either.


I could have gotten out of the tree, held his hand, and walked him 50' to the truck, in clear sight.



I could ask for a blue and white rope from the truck bed, and have a groundie ask, "this?", And have a red and white rope in hand.

The majority of groundies are groundies for a reason, and it's not a good one.
Some groundies.

I wonder if there would be better attention paid if I said every time, "your ability to work here is based on your ability to follow direct instructions. Please go get the blue and white rope."
Clearly, this wouldn't work, as it would become adversarial.

Most people can't hear very well, unless they're trying to listen closely. Every walk of life.
 
southsoundtree said:
Cervi, what is this advice referring to?
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When I was in a first aid class we were at the point of doing scene assessment. Being aware of known hazards and being prepared for the unknown. A classmate said that something's are just 'common sense'. The instructor asked what that was. After a bit of discussion he gave the best definition

@jimsebesta said:

Common sense is the practical application of everything you know

I would go over rope etiquette with new hires. Even if they were experienced.
 
southsoundtree said:
I wish there were more good training and apprenticeship opportunities for Arboriculture.
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Ghandi famously said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world"

Having said that, training/education in our realm is a challenging nut to crack. It's best done off the job-site in a dedicated classroom environment for clearer understanding and maximum retention, but in practice we tend to throw a newbie into the mix and while we're trying to meet our own personal production needs, simultaneously educate (code for yell at) said newbie about what we want them to do, and what we want them to stop doing, all the while trying to knead as much production out of the day as possible and hoping they'll keep their arms and legs out of the chipper and grinder.
 
cerviarborist said:
Ghandi famously said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world"

Having said that, training/education in our realm is a challenging nut to crack. It's best done off the job-site in a dedicated classroom environment for clearer understanding and maximum retention, but in practice we tend to throw a newbie into the mix and while we're trying to meet our own personal production needs, simultaneously educate (code for yell at) said newbie about what we want them to do, and what we want them to stop doing, all the while trying to knead as much production out of the day as possible and hoping they'll keep their arms and legs out of the chipper and grinder.
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Well, yeah. Have you ever tried to get a 20 year old kid, who is in an entry level position as "Lead rakist", to open a book (that he didn't have to buy) when he is not on the clock so that he can learn enough to ask questions about the things he doesn't know, either when neither of us are getting paid, or we both are, because he wants to learn something?
It doesn't work... Because that kid went to college. You basically have to deal with the sorts of people who don't care to be anything, unless you find one who changed his mind after he didn't want to be anything at some really crucial points in his life, as far as determining what you do with your life is concerned. Well, those ones and the ones who are not smart enough to take your job. I'd much rather deal with sharp underachievers than industrious imbeciles (except, possibly, the most grunt-like position on the crew. I'm practical, not hateful.). You can, over time, show someone that applying yourself for any one of dozens of reasons is worthwhile.
 
That's the thing. You're asking the kid to train on their own time. In essence, you've told them. "I want you to pick up this skill, but the target skill and your time are actually worthless to me, because I'm not paying you to learn it." I've been fortunate to work in many disciplines outside of tree work, and any time I was asked to develop a skill set in which I hadn't already demonstrated proficiency, I was paid to attend a class or a training session where a qualified instructor was being paid to teach or train me. Tree work is the only endeavor I've been involved with, where during your entry level phase, your employer wants you to try to learn tasks and procedures in the middle of a high risk job site, or to train yourself for free.

I guess the catch 22 is that if we're unable or unwilling to pay a trainer to train a paid trainee, then we limit our work pool to people who've acquired their training elsewhere...or aren't trained at all.
 
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cerviarborist said:
That's the thing. You're asking the kid to train on their own time. In essence, you've told them. "I want you to pick up this skill, but the target skill and your time are actually worthless to me, because I'm not paying you to learn it." I've been fortunate to work in many disciplines outside of tree work, and any time I was asked to develop a skill set in which I hadn't already demonstrated proficiency, I was paid to attend a class or a training session where a qualified instructor was being paid to teach or train me. Tree work is the only endeavor I've been involved with, where during your entry level phase, your employer wants you to try to learn tasks and procedures in the middle of a high risk job site, or to train yourself for free.

I guess the catch 22 is that if we're unable or unwilling to pay a trainer to train a paid trainee, then we limit our work pool to people who've acquired their training else where...or aren't trained at all.
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I've never learned anything else professionally. I can't imagine being paid to learn if it's not expirimenting with concepts to hopefully make someone money (trial and error with speedlines, for example). Knowledge is power. If I want to learn it, I will, regardless of money. My value as an individual and as a professional is my burden to bear and my monument to have pride in.
Other professions are weird. In trees, demonstrable prowess is basically equal to how much the individual cares.
 
SomethingWitty said:
I've never learned anything else professionally. I can't imagine being paid to learn if it's not expirimenting with concepts to hopefully make someone money (trial and error with speedlines, for example). Knowledge is power. If I want to learn it, I will, regardless of money. My value as an individual and as a professional is my burden to bear and my monument to have pride in.
Other professions are weird. In trees, demonstrable prowess is basically equal to how much the individual cares.
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Great post and well put.
 
cerviarborist said:
Ghandi famously said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world"

Having said that, training/education in our realm is a challenging nut to crack. It's best done off the job-site in a dedicated classroom environment for clearer understanding and maximum retention, but in practice we tend to throw a newbie into the mix and while we're trying to meet our own personal production needs, simultaneously educate (code for yell at) said newbie about what we want them to do, and what we want them to stop doing, all the while trying to knead as much production out of the day as possible and hoping they'll keep their arms and legs out of the chipper and grinder.
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I train the snot outta my guys, if they're worthwhile. Worthwhile starts with prepared daily, punctual, paying attention to their work.

I'll take on a real apprentice.

One of my guys got on a Hot Shot crew, somehow, after working for me. Another works for his friend in our town. Another guy has his own business.
 
Much or what one is trying to assess when hiring is the prospective new hire's ability to achieve the desired level of productivity in a given timeframe. Further to this is balancing the company's level of urgency in filling the position and the pool of candidates available at the time.

So, if you're new hire isn't cutting it, where does the fault lie? With the new hire or the recruiter, i.e., you? A few questions to ask yourself:
  1. Have you sufficient time to recruit, screen, select and train for the position?
  2. Is the pool of candidates large enough to find quality prospects to screen?
  3. How well does your screening process uncover the key elements to identify a prospects starting point and determine the degree of training required?
  4. How flexible is your training program to adapt to the learning style of the selected hire?
  5. Are your timeframes realistic in light of all the parameters?
There's a need to be able to understand how people function in the dynamic of starting a new position. Some will jump right in and experiment while others will be much more tentative and need more encouragement to get into unfamiliar territory. Understanding the individual and how they process new concepts and situations will greatly improve how well your new hires adapt and achieve that level of productivity.
 
Thanks Sean. Yes, I recall it. I've been told that TCIA is working with the Dept of Labor in NJ to develop an apprenticeship here. I'm very interested to see what they come up with!
 
We're working with TCIA and ISA as well re the Arboriculture program to be at Columbus State. Part if it is reaching out to the technical high schools and related youth programs throughout the srate as well.

As always...what do the pros want propspective arbo. students and potential employees to have learned already before joining the work force?
 
SomethingWitty said:
I've never learned anything else professionally. I can't imagine being paid to learn if it's not expirimenting with concepts to hopefully make someone money (trial and error with speedlines, for example). Knowledge is power. If I want to learn it, I will, regardless of money. My value as an individual and as a professional is my burden to bear and my monument to have pride in.
Other professions are weird. In trees, demonstrable prowess is basically equal to how much the individual cares.
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Flipping the script, if your employer really puts value on that skill, they'll put their money on seeing that you've got the best and fastest way to gain that knowledge, not to mention a permanent record that you've been successfully trained in the task and can now be reasonably expected to demonstrate ongoing proficiency.

I'm sorry that you've not had the experience of having an arboricultural employer invest in increasing your professional knowledge, and I applaud your initiative to learn on your own, but I have to question the overall efficiency of trying to internalize new information when either in the midst of a busy workday on a job-site or when bone tired at the end of a long day of hard work, versus being fresh and rested and in an environment designed to maximize the learning experience.

Also, in reviewing ANSI Z133, again and again it comes down to the employer's responsibility to make sure that workers are properly equipped and trained for the work they're doing. Employers who haven't fulfilled that responsibility will be in for some very long and unpleasant days, in the event of an incident causing property damage, or worse personal injury or death.
 
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