SRT Trunk Tie Off/Safety Concerns

G.I. Joe?

This has been a great discussion to follow. It has made me think quite a bit about trunk Tie off's and the pro's and cons. I've been using a trunk tie for a couple years and have never had an issue where I felt my anchor rope was compromised. When I set it - I just make sure that it comes down as close to the trunk as possible so I know where it is all times. If I am cutting anywhere close to it, I will go as far as putting a small redirect (sling and carabiner) to move the rope away from the saw. Groundies, for me it's as simple as "you don't cut with any saw within 5 feet of the base of the tree".
 
I agree, that this has been a valid discussion. In the end, it all comes down to what one feels is safest, and most efficient for them.

I have enjoyed SRT climbing for a while now. I ran a yo-yo style system for a bit, then switched to the Wrench. I reach for my SRT gear over 90% of the time, ESPECIALLY when the climb will involve multiple redirects. I generally either slack out my base tie a bit and attach a mid-line FC with an Alpine Butterfly behind it, or have a ground man disconnect the base tie for isolation.

Safety is a state of mind. There are so many ways to protect yourself in an SRT system, it just takes careful thought. This kind of thinking should be brought into every climb, regardless of the system being used.

Climb safe, everyone, and have fun while you're at it!
 
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...I've been using a trunk tie for a couple years and have never had an issue where I felt my anchor rope was compromised...

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It is interesting that the people who are the most concerned on the safety of working off a base-tied system, are the ones with the least amount of experience in their use.

Dave
 
I'm pretty new with the SRT, so forgive me if I come across as naive. What I see is that we are getting new gear and adding to or changing the way we climb. It also puts new tools in our mental tool box. This gives us more options and we should think about what is the best option each time we want to access a tree. Ddrt or SRT? Base tie in or top tie in? Sometimes a base tie in may not be appropriate and could be switched over to a top tie in upon reaching the top. There are ways you could do this and make the rope retrievable. This also changes the force on your system.
I have not tried this and am thinking aloud here. Attach a prussik near the top of your system to a deadeye sling which is tied to the tree and cinch the prussik on your line. This would amount to a top tied back up rather than a base tied back up. Or use both.Of course you still have to go back and untie it at the end of work when the danger of severing the line is over but you could at least descend the whole way and retrieve it after. There are probably dozens of ways of securing the line in a similar way. You could ascend Ddrt and secure the climb side of the line at the top with a friction saver thus changing it to SRT for canopy work and making it fully retrievable. But you lose the advantage of SRT ascent.

There is no perfect system. The tree, the crew, the climber and risks determine what will be the best combination of efficient and safe.
 
I can see the benefits of srt, its the base tie off that freaks me a bit.

Im a contract climber and i reckon i see some new face every week, on any one of numerous crews. This does'nt bother me at all, I can look after my self!

If i know the crew, i.e working with the same crew day in day out, I would prob be much more comfortable with having an integeral part of MY life support system within cutting distance from the ground.

Stay safe dudes!
 
Just playing devil's advocate here... What's the difference between a basil tie climbing SRT and the guy that ascends SRT with a secret weapon and works double line from there? There are a lot of guys doing this... And it has nothing to do with single line work positioning. Its allowed in comps. Same risks???

4 or 5 months ago I had a close call with a basil tie. We had 4 or 5 climber in the tree (mistake 1: I should have known better, I do now). We were installing lights and there were a couple pieces of dead wood that needed to be removed as well. My down line was directly down through the center of the tree (Mistake 2). A less experienced climber was asked to remove a branch (Mistake 3) that was away from my line. The branch was successfully removed and tossed but the hand saw was not put away until the climber turned in the tree (180), hit the back of the blade on my down line and proceeded to put the saw away.

If I'm climbing a tree that I am the ONLY reasonable person/object that can precipitate me from the tree (by my own stupidity) then and only then will I use a basil tie. The other day I ascended single line, base tie, and just to see if I could do it, put my monkey pulley (what I'm calling it) in leaving the base tie for redundancy. It's already been said "many ways to skin a cat", there are hundreds if not thousands of ways to climb trees. Know the risks, mitigate them, and go home at the end of the day in one piece.
 
What a great discussion. I'm glad you brought up the safety concerns, Grover.

I think SRT is here to stay, so perhaps we should start thinking of some ways to develop procedures to answer some of yours (and others) safety concerns.

I have often thought that the basal tie-off region was especially exposed to damage. What about tying a separate, back-up rope to the primary lifeline that would catch the rope in case the primary was cut? This could affix to the basal rope and attach to the primary line with a prussik or even carabiner (to a butterfly on the primary). The attachment point could be pulled up a bit into the canopy to allow the two ropes to be be physically separated.

Just a thought. I look forward to seeing where this thread goes.
 
KyLimbwalker - I can see what you are saying about a backup rope. After you set your line and tie it off at the base, maybe 10-15 feet up throw a sling around a branch or trunk with a prussic or similar device attached to the rope. Continuing to think/type outloud, the backup rope attached to your primary rope can be 10-15 feet long so it can be pulled down from the ground after the climb.

What about the ability to lower the climber remotely? You know, the reason many of us use the trunk tie off you ask? Bring a ladder that has the reach to get to the sling at a minimum. Most people can climb a ladder and cut the sling if they cant get to the prussic. What if they cut the wrong line in a moment of panic? Use a bright, different colored sling than your primary rope. What if they don't have a knife? You can go as far as hanging a FOLDING knife from the sling you would cut.

Still thinking out loud - you could have your back-up a foot or two above your primary on the backside, have the rope (bright different color) wrap up and Blakes hitch it to your primary as high as you want, even up to your TIP.

I would guess that your risk of having two base anchors cut at the same time would be reduced dramatically.

Ramble on! Hope this made some sense!!
 
Adding a second support rope brings us closer to a Double Rope System like rope access requires. Two seperate and independent supports. One active and the other passive or climber controlled.

This system brings in its own set of considerations.

Sometimes addling layers to any system to manage safety leads to a cumbersome and less-safe system.

I'd be more likely to consider a choked TIP rather than adding in a second rope to cover the potential risk of damaging a trunk wrap tie off.
 
There maybe other advantages to climbing with two ropes. Pantin on each foot etc. Seems like it would tangle a lot though and carring it through the tree. Im sure its doable and quite safe. Would just slow you down a lot. I got an ASAP that would work as a low maintenance back up on an extra line. One added advantage is that you could technically never need to lanyard in to make cuts. if you were always tied to two independent ropes. That would be ideal, its just a matter of efficiency. THe ASAP is annoying because it doesn't allow one to make sudden movements too well. In a sense like like a speed governor on a school bus. You would have to be very adept at rope management
 
Treebing - I think you are looking at it backwards? I'm sure it's confusing to read! The 2nd rope would be on the non-climbing side of the rope coming down. It could be as simple as a footlock prussic cord attached to the line 4ft up and run down to a sling and carabiner.
 
oh no I was just thinking aloud myself, not particularly responding to a post just expanding on the idea of climbing with two ropes. Pretty much all gear says that you should never depend on just one piece of hardware, pretty much all ropes say the same thing. This has made the tree championships problematic for example if we are to use gear the way it was intended.
 
jmcscrap- Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind. It would create some redundancy in the support system.

@Tom, yes, I agree a choked system on the TIP is safer, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of being able to dismantle the system from the ground? Unless you leave enough rope for the tail to reach the ground..
 
[ QUOTE ]
Adding a second support rope brings us closer to a Double Rope System like rope access requires. Two seperate and independent supports. One active and the other passive or climber controlled.

This system brings in its own set of considerations.

Sometimes addling layers to any system to manage safety leads to a cumbersome and less-safe system.

I'd be more likely to consider a choked TIP rather than adding in a second rope to cover the potential risk of damaging a trunk wrap tie off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another option would be to used a choked TIP and place a smaller throw line type rope (slick line, 240lb. test) in the running bowline so it could be pulled down from the ground. This small pull down line may get in the way some while working but at least if it were cut to tangled the climber most likely would be OK.
 
TreeCo, I've used the throw line retrieval setup, and it works well, especially if you plan to use most of your rope to access multiple trees or numerous redirects. I found that by attaching a throw bag to the throw line, enough weight is added that the line will hang taught, and be less likely to drift around and get tangled while working. You can also toss it down through the crown of another tree to keep it entirely away. Any of the climb routes mentioned above should be done with an isolated TIP, such as an R&r FS, or similar. These are just options, but the point of the thread remains...Know your system, and work with care!
 
My Rope Wrench wants to kill your mama...
My Rope Wrench wants to kill your daddy...
 
My extensive research this past winter has shown that squirrels prefer hitch chord (Ice Tail more than OP) by a wide margin over climbing line (Blue Moon)...

squirrelnestrope.jpg
 
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