SRT Re-Tie Ins ???

treewill

Active Member
I really like the basal tie. I often use 4 or more redirects through multiple trees and the line always comes out (though sometimes it takes some persuading)

I think the answer to what Tom D called the 'flop factor' and what Nick talked about with the line wanting to pull you over the TIP is to use static line. I find it cumbersome and imprecise to use arborist climbing rope for SRT.

My working line is 10mm HTP, no splices. Way better than any arborist climbing rope for SRT climbing, IMO.

Another point about redirecting is that one can be much bolder in choosing TIPs. Because one is frequently redirecting over branches at an obtuse angle, and because there are multiple anchors rather than one, it is possible to redirect over branches that one would never trust as an anchor for DdRT climbing.
 
Ok so let me just start with letting u know that im going about srt climbing in a bit of a different way. Personally i am a big fan of running the loop setup and avoiding the double stress on my tie in point if i want a nice high one. To get around the redirect issue ill tie a 30ft beeline with a small heavy steel snap at one end and a trango clinch with a strap. No splice on the tail for easy removal. So then i can throw the snap over an out of reach union and drop the snap, put that on ur climbing line, draw it up and then attach the tail to the tree where u are. Now there are many ways to accomplish this sort of thing, but this seems to be very easy and quick. i find myself doing a lot more redirecting a lot more often as its practical now and makes my job safer and easier. I can now do things i couldnt do before with anything less.
 

JMerritt

Well-Known Member
i tend to avoid base ties, they make me nervous and i am far more confident in my ability to judge the weight capacity of a tie in point when the load is not doubled (or some fraction therof). my favored method these days is to his a mid point easy target to enter using simple running bowline. once i reach first tie in i either switch to drt (because with the hitch hiker i can!) or advance my line tying and re tying said bowline. at primary tie in i either install r/revolver fs w/butterfly and tail to ground (or seperate retrieval line in very tall trees), or i re tie the running bowline again and tie off the tail of the rope to the bowline. yes you have to mind the loop, but it gives you the option of abandoning your tie in if needed. you do need to be mindfull of your redirects, avoiding tight crotches or sharp bends. cheers. Jaime
 

treebing

Well-Known Member
I find that if I plan a lot of redirects, than I can set a higher primary suspension point if I use a base tie. The reason for this is that redirects can really pull a canopy Tie in point against the grain. Having a base tie orients the force down the stem more in compression allowing me to set some very bomber and Very high redirects without setting up branches to fail.

practically the only time I don't use a base tie is during removals, or if it appears I cant set it up to not interfere with my cutting. In conifers, a lot of times I will set up the base tie on the tree in the neighbors yard, so it doesn't run down through the branches Im cutting. Ill do this even on thick conifer removals.
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
... Having a base tie orients the force down the stem more in compression allowing me to set some very bomber and Very high redirects without setting up branches to fail...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Understanding of how force can be shared and absorbed in compression needs to be understood by any climber wishing to utilize SRWP to it's full potential.

Dave
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

I agree. Understanding of how force can be shared and absorbed in compression needs to be understood by any climber wishing to utilize SRWP to it's full potential.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave I agree, but think you are being to specific.

Understanding forces developed while climbing with any system is necessary for any climbing at any time. Is is part and parcel of safe work practices when aloft. It is the very basis of safe climbing not just "using to potential."

Respectfully,

Tony
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree. Understanding of how force can be shared and absorbed in compression needs to be understood by any climber wishing to utilize SRWP to it's full potential.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave I agree, but think you are being to specific.

Understanding forces developed while climbing with any system is necessary for any climbing at any time. Is is part and parcel of safe work practices when aloft. It is the very basis of safe climbing not just "using to potential."

Respectfully,

Tony

[/ QUOTE ]


Tony, I don't disagree with what you say, but I was trying to address something that seems to be a common problem with climbers changing systems. Experienced production climbers, especially ones that choose canopy anchors because they do not trust base anchors and the multipliers of force associated with their use, will tend to view and utilize a tree as they always have. This may keep them safe but will not extract the full potential of a static rope climbing system.

Dave
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Dave,

I agree and see your point. In the end we may be splitting semantic hairs!

Full potential or half, double rope or single, one tie in or many; I think we agree that an understanding of the forces a climbing system puts on a tree is vital and must be understood before leaving the ground by every climber, every climb.

In the end we can calculate rope strength, hitch holding capacity, friction at tie in points, harnes strength and on and on. What we must estimate to the best of our ability is tree strength and stability and how it will react to what we wish to do as climbers, pruners and/or riggers.

Thanks for your input and response,

Tony
 

bonner1040

Well-Known Member
Tony, Dave,

Try and separate yourselves from the majority of tree workers. Most guys couldnt explain a vector, or even tell you the force multiplier in a simple basal tie.

"an understanding of the forces a climbing system puts on a tree is vital and must be understood before leaving the ground by every climber, every climb."

That seems awful lofty dont you think? We Buzzers and other forum participants are the obvious minority, but what makes us the lucky ones is having guys like you two to learn from.

"we can calculate rope strength, hitch holding capacity, friction at tie in points, harnes strength and on and on. What we must estimate to the best of our ability is tree strength and stability and how it will react to what we wish to do as climbers, pruners and/or riggers."

-I think most guys think, 'its bigger than my wrist?' = good to go.

One of the biggest hurdles we face is figuring out how to educate people that, as a majority dont really want to be educated. Further, when you give uneducated people facts, rules of thumbs, and simple formulas; sometimes you are giving them just enough to think they understand the complex factors when in reality they have been given only enough rope to hang themselves.
 
I you guys are right on the money. The whole concept of rules of thumb have gone out the window. I have got to be the lightest climber around and i dont like bouncing much. If theres anything like a rule at all, make the climbing system like it should sustain a pretty decent little rigging operation rather than a climbers setup. I think it takes a considerable amount of awareness of whats all going on with the whole system at all times. What it seems to come down to for me in the end is looking at the tree a LOT and routing things as best as possible. I try to think of doing a hard bounce test on it and the different forces in different directions.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]


Try and separate yourselves from the majority of tree workers. Most guys couldnt explain a vector, or even tell you the force multiplier in a simple basal tie.



[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience most tree workers know these forces, but often cannot put a name to them. Experience tells a climber that the branch union is stronger closer to the trunk than out the limb a ways. There is a innate understanding of bending moment even if it cannot be quantified. That is just one example.

Often when explained forces and the corresponding names are easily grasped, because to a climber it "just makes sense"

[ QUOTE ]


"an understanding of the forces a climbing system puts on a tree is vital and must be understood before leaving the ground by every climber, every climb."

That seems awful lofty dont you think? We Buzzers and other forum participants are the obvious minority, but what makes us the lucky ones is having guys like you two to learn from.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not so lofty. On written forums it is important to say what you mean and mean what you say and to make that abundantly clear. Precise word choice, proper punctuation and succinctly stated points are all a part of this process. Even if the idea is it is easier to brake a pencil in half cross grain than pull it apart longwise or the opposite to compress it.

Of course I am going out of my way to use an eclectic vernacular , because your use of the term "lofty" made me chuckle a bit. As a result of a closely held, long running joke, I am going out of my way to poke at you. It is all truly in jest and I sincerely hope you are chuckling as you read this lengthy tome bedangled with big words, expanded vocabulary and sophistry!

While my writing is often construed as lofty, you must admit, when read there is usually little doubt as to my subject/point/ whatever. I as stated above a hope a laugh or two as well.

[ QUOTE ]


"we can calculate rope strength, hitch holding capacity, friction at tie in points, harnes strength and on and on. What we must estimate to the best of our ability is tree strength and stability and how it will react to what we wish to do as climbers, pruners and/or riggers."


-I think most guys think, 'its bigger than my wrist?' = good to go.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not a bad rule of thumb, by the way, for much of North America

[ QUOTE ]


One of the biggest hurdles we face is figuring out how to educate people that, as a majority dont really want to be educated. Further, when you give uneducated people facts, rules of thumbs, and simple formulas; sometimes you are giving them just enough to think they understand the complex factors when in reality they have been given only enough rope to hang themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Most tree workers want to learn to expand their knowledge. This is not to say all are that way, but the great majority welcome learning and improvement.

The art and skill of taking complex ideas, formulas or lofty sophistry and presenting them simply in a engaging fashion that can be remembered and applied is the difference between good training and poor. It should be the main focus of arboricultural trainers and constantly refined and expanded upon.

The best technician in the world is no good as a teacher less he or she can convey what they know clearly, in an understandable fashion.

Tony
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
I just got off the phone from an hour talk with an old buddy of mine in Minneapolis. A mentor of ours just retired from the trade. He'll be missed by many people. He learned a lot about trees from working in them and passed that knowledge along. We came up in the professions when a fax was a way to communicate. Or, a long distance call at exorbitant rates. Now...no excuse not being educated or knowledgeable.

This thread is amazing! Lots of well-written ideas. I know how long it takes to write up a complex comment.

Thanks a lot!
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Those guys were actually quite impressed when I showed them mechanical advantage. They were able to bring along a much larger beer fridge and more easily install the camp netting over their pot plants.

They are gunna flip when I show them the stick trick! Really gunna change how they fish!

Tony
 

bonner1040

Well-Known Member
Just try to make an impact and impart everybody that passes by you with a little bit of knowledge to take away. Its all we can do Tony, its a burden but a noble one.
 

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