Splicing 16 strand

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm stuck on this part yet again. I'm only 2 inches away from finishing. Such a pain in the butt. I might try the no core and send it to knot and rope to break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A wire fid will solve that problem.
 
Its a coat hanger right now. I don't have a vise at my house so I have to wait till I get to work to really put some effort into it. Does the toss wand help any with this type of splicing?
 
Hi all,
A few odd assumptions out there. First, as Norm notes, the lockstitch does nothing to improve strength, only security, and even then only at low loads. But the crossover does improve strength, or rather it helps prevent loss of strength, by (mostly) eliminating the stress riser where the rope would otherwise change diameter.
Yes, there are lots of splices out there that have no overlap between the core and the buried cover tails, and yes, these are unlikely to break in use. But this bypasses the reason that the splice developed as it did: with a proper overlap, you get an optimal splice. The trouble is that the best splices, in any construction, tend to be the hardest to do. So people start taking shortcuts, like skipping the overlap, and then justifying their action with rationales like, "The overlap actually weakens the rope", or, "It's a barely noticeable taper." This kind of thinking has gotten people killed with shortcuts in splices in standard double-braid. "I haven't heard of one failing" is not the kind of reassurance I'd like to have for something like this.
Increasingly, the mantra in our shop is, "Everyone's entitled to their opinions; no one is entitled to their facts." It is entirely possible that some form of limited- or non-overlap 16-strand splice is utterly strong and secure, as well as easier than the current model.But until that is proven, I suggest that we remember that splicing is an art, and therefore requires practice. Shortcuts erode.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss
 
If splicing is an art, and I believe it is, then Brion Toss is a renaissance master. The man has spoken, I respectfully withdraw my comments... to Jesse in particular.

But just to be clear, I never said anything about lock stitching adding strength, rather just the contrary. When I say I've never heard of one withdrawing, it should be evident that I'm speaking for myself and I've already clearly qualified myself as nothing more than an amateur... but has ANYBODY here ever heard of a 16 strand splice withdrawing under load? It just doesn't seem possible.
Eliminating the stress riser makes perfect sense but a stress riser presumes a relatively abrupt change in diameter or tightness and a smooth taper minimizes that.

With all that out of the way, I stated I've never spliced a 16-strand lifeline, only friction savers and split-tails and I'll stick to pulling the core on those. If I were to do a lifeline I would probably go the distance and do the crossover now that you've schooled me on why it's done in the first place... but I would say a LOT of bad words while doing it and probably even use Brion's name in vain a couple of times.

I shouldn't have spoken so authoritatively but I honestly was waiting for Norm or somebody like Brion to come in a set me straight if I was wrong. I learned to pull the core from a very experienced and trustworthy individual, I didn't make it up as a shortcut.

To Jesse I apologize, I was wrong, you were right.
 
No need for an apology. But I must say Boo-ya!
laugh.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
...But the crossover does improve strength, or rather it helps prevent loss of strength, by (mostly) eliminating the stress riser where the rope would otherwise change diameter.
...But this bypasses the reason that the splice developed as it did: with a proper overlap, you get an optimal splice...
It is entirely possible that some form of limited- or non-overlap 16-strand splice is utterly strong and secure, as well as easier than the current model.But until that is proven...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you won't get a proof from me, but I do have an interesting fact. First of all, I agree that maintaining a uniform diameter for the cover is desirable and should give the strongest possible result. If overlapping cores are involved and supplying some tensile strength, the result could even be better than the native rope.

But how bad is the worst case where a big fat buried core comes to an abrupt blunt end and we expose the cover to the worst possible "stress riser?" I have done this experiment several times with hollow braids like Tenex and measured about 10% loss of strength compared to a proper splice with a long smooth taper. In one experiment I measured the cover braid angles in the fat bury section and the open-rope section. When I took the appropriate cosines and what-have-you, the expected strength loss at the end of the blunt bury was extremely close to 10%! The case is not proved, but my results certainly suggest that overlapping cores or tapered buries don't have a big effect on strength. There are often other good reasons to overlap or taper, of course, and they probably trump any minor strength effect.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Its a coat hanger right now. I don't have a vise at my house so I have to wait till I get to work to really put some effort into it. Does the toss wand help any with this type of splicing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we kind of ignored you... sorry about that.
Even a coat hanger is a bit fat, I use 0.60" piano wire... and I've broken it twice trying 16 strand.

BUT... it sounds like you've snagged some core if it just stopped cold at one spot. Back it out and try again and be super careful about not disturbing the core... try going in the other side maybe.

I've never tried a wand on 16 strand, mines a medium and I'm pretty sure it's too big.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...But the crossover does improve strength, or rather it helps prevent loss of strength, by (mostly) eliminating the stress riser where the rope would otherwise change diameter.
...But this bypasses the reason that the splice developed as it did: with a proper overlap, you get an optimal splice...
It is entirely possible that some form of limited- or non-overlap 16-strand splice is utterly strong and secure, as well as easier than the current model.But until that is proven...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you won't get a proof from me, but I do have an interesting fact. First of all, I agree that maintaining a uniform diameter for the cover is desirable and should give the strongest possible result. If overlapping cores are involved and supplying some tensile strength, the result could even be better than the native rope.

But how bad is the worst case where a big fat buried core comes to an abrupt blunt end and we expose the cover to the worst possible "stress riser?" I have done this experiment several times with hollow braids like Tenex and measured about 10% loss of strength compared to a proper splice with a long smooth taper. In one experiment I measured the cover braid angles in the fat bury section and the open-rope section. When I took the appropriate cosines and what-have-you, the expected strength loss at the end of the blunt bury was extremely close to 10%! The case is not proved, but my results certainly suggest that overlapping cores or tapered buries don't have a big effect on strength. There are often other good reasons to overlap or taper, of course, and they probably trump any minor strength effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you spliced it wrong and proved it would lose strength. Cool.
 
I think what he's saying is, the taper isn't critical to the splice's strength. An optimal taper will yield an optimal splice but a soso taper won't compromise it so much that it's no good.

With that said, I like nice even crossovers and tapers.

Splicing really is an art of sorts so being a perfectionist is part of the discipline.
 
It won't go out or in. So I'm going to man handle it and if it doesn't move I'll toss it. Its nothing special just a test piece of rope.

I have piano wire I use for double braid and my tenex but its tiny and I was trying to see if I could use the bigger stuff. Guess not.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It won't go out or in. So I'm going to man handle it and if it doesn't move I'll toss it. Its nothing special just a test piece of rope.

I have piano wire I use for double braid and my tenex but its tiny and I was trying to see if I could use the bigger stuff. Guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

jman we are in the same boat the one i did my dad had to pull through he has more upper body strength then me and when i tried the second one...no luck...it was a test piece as well and I just cut my wand out....

now I found a clothes hanger that is thinner than the one i have now so i am going to try with that one

the videos that were posted are the way I have seen them do it at trade shows but i know people do them with hand made wire fids...can someone post a video of that technique?
 
I think a coat hanger will work, it's just harder. Don't try it with thin piano wire, it will likely break.

Might be interesting to dissect it and see what the deal is.
 
This is my 16 strand fid. The wire is about 0.60" gage and the largest unwound wire from a spinet piano. The ring is so I can anchor it to an eyebolt in my floor and massage and pull with both hands and most of my weight.
You use it just like a wand... it's just not as slick.

Fid_1.jpg
 
Not soon, no 16-strand splicing in my near future. If I'm not working I'm on split-tails and adjusters and driving kids around, for the next week at least.

I follow the Samson instructions but I take out the core first and pull where they say push. I haven't done one with a crossover in a couple of years now.

When you say second bury, do you mean the second pull if your fid is too short? Cuz I only do the one 28" bury. That's why my wire fid is so long, I can do the whole bury in one pass.
Orrr, do you mean something different?
 
I do the bury in two runs. First run I pull out the same spot where the core was extracted, then the crossover. The key to the crossover is to not catch any core strands. There are ways to check if you have caught any strands. Once you have inserted your fid, pull on the exposed core strands and milk the cover back and forth, if the fid doesn't slide when you milk you are probably clean.
 
HA! one blister and a blood blister coming to the surface. I used the coat hanger just in case it got stuck but it sure does help to have somewhere to anchor it and yank hard. I might start the other side for a test break since I'll be out at least a day with the snow here.
 

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom