snap cuts on horizontal limbs, canopy

speelyei

speelyei

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at my first tree job, we held the limb with one hand and cut with the other. handsaw, chainsaw, whatever. sometimes we would tie the limb to our lanyard, or the tail of our climbline, or to a seperate rigging line.

then this new guy got hired.

he was a line clearance journeyman, and he had a bag of tricks. Blocks, shackles, dead-eye slings, and knowledge . he could climb like a squirrel. I once saw him climb a 200' redwood with spikes and no lanyard , like it was nothing. like it was something he did every day.
anyway, one of the things he did that i have never seen in a video or heard anyone talk about online or in person was snap-cuts.
now, we've all seen guys chunk down a spar with mis-match cuts. everybody knows that. But this guy was the master...
he showed us how to do snap cuts on horizontal limbs that eliminated 50% of the rigging we had to do. I saw him many times do a mis-match cut on a horizontal limb ( the cuts run vertically) swing out on his climb line, break the piece off, and then use his momentum and climbline to swing the piece to the opposite side of the tree and throw a huge bushy limb right behind the chipper.
we did several crane removals where he'd rig the piece, slip down, cut a mis-match/snap cut, and then step down a little lower than the piece. the crane operator would only have to move the crane to the side slightly, and then snap the piece of easily, slowly, perfectly.
A lot of guys use the snap cut on piddly stuff, but how many of you guys use it on a regular basis, even as part of rigging?

I could post a whole other thread about this dude, he was awesome... sort of. he'd ride the train in to work like a hobo (DUI) Lived in a 20' trailer in a three sided barn he built himself out of timber he'd milled. he really knew how to trim and remove trees, in fourteen years i've never seen anyone else quite the same.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

oh yeah... what got me to thinking about him was ranger-dangers rotten tree thread. And my rant about stubs.
One of Daves pieces of advice was "total control". Stubs were an intolerable risk and a hassle, on the tree and on the ground.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

I didnt really see much application of the snap cut to a horizontal limb in that video.... but, uh, cool anyway.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

Well, I was referring to your comment on crane snap cuts. By the way, snap cuts on horizontal limbs can be very unpredictible depending on tree variety, angle, and end weight of branch. They can be useful when tip tying and using a seperate rigging line.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

"By the way, snap cuts on horizontal limbs can be very unpredictible depending on tree variety, angle, and end weight of branch."

uhm, yeah, thanks. I'll remember that.
at least someone read my post.

So, do you climb rocks, also? I climbed this fun little formation over by Lake Havasu called Crab Claw Rock. It even had a summit register. i just spotted it from the highway, had a rack and went out to see if there was anobvious line. Started up, and lo and behold, here's a bolt! I was stunned. the guy who's name was in the register seemed really surprised to hear from us.... I dont think it gets a lot of action...
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

I've used snap cuts on little stuff before but wasn't really sold on them until I worked with some line clearance guys in NOLA... now I use them constantly. They really do give you a lot more control for cutting and chucking. I've been on this kick for a while of trying to make piles rather than just dropping brush everywhere so I'm controlling pieces I would have just let drop before... kinda fun. I'm definitely gonna try the swinging rope trick.

I agree you have to be careful about the species but you get that figured out after the first few cuts.

Seems like every time I climb with somebody new I come away with some cool new techniques but the line clearance guys really do have a nice bag of tricks. Makes me want to work with a veg management company for about a year or two just to learn some of that stuff. No way I can in my situation, but if I was younger...
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

I read the post but lost interest after hearing the guy was free climbing.
I don't use snap cuts often enough, something I should be using more often.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

i use 'em here and there, they definatly have their place, i just showed a newbie how to do them two weeks ago, he loved it, it a nice alturnative to cut and hold, as long as you dont screw up and cut too much and lose the limb, thats what i like about showing new guys, they think its simple enough til they lose a limb, then they re think it all again, it makes them think about how and why it works, and if they dont put some thought of their own behind it then i know to stop teaching them because they arent absorbed by the profession.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

here is a neat trick that can help alleviate some of the risks of having the snap cut fail on you...or to help practice.

The red and blue lines are slings girth hitched to the main stem and the piece to be cut. the purple circle is a rigging crab...make your cut at the orange dotted line. put your saw away, snap the piece and you have just practiced a vertical snap cut. i use this if i have obstacle under me but i have room to throw the piece and there isn't too much stuff to warrant using a rigging line and another guys time. also i have to know the piece is light enough for me to handle.
 

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Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

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here is a neat trick that can help alleviate some of the risks of having the snap cut fail on you...or to help practice.



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Phil I use your technique quite a bit. I always carry six webbing loops and biners on my saddle.

I've been using the snap cut since about 1990. Very handy technique. You can do some pretty large pieces off a spar when flying a bucket truck, it just gets a bit hard on the nerves making the second cut with all of that wood overhead. Pieces weighing upwards of 1,000lbs can be snapped off of a spar. Make the two cuts, rise to the top of the spar, shake until the 'snap' is heard.....and then push the piece off the way you want it to go.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

On horizontal snap cuts; i try to think of it as an early closing hinge. The top of the cut is the pivot; the close of the nose is the compression. The length in between is the leverage multiplier of the compression.

The idea is to let it close, and only need a little holding wood; that can be quickly cut. The immediacy of the release can give a dead/straight drop. So, sometimes i'll undercut, then cut in from the sides, to leave less fiber, to cut thru quicker. Kinda like if you have a fast saw, and can cut a small piece straight thru so fast it can't rip.

If at the close, the CG is lower than the pivot and compression points; i think it is still likely to want to come back towards you some. On the other hand, if on a slight incline; where the CG is higher than pivot, i see it jump out some. If on horizontal and cut so quick it slams shut; i think it can spring forward some.

On horizontals, i think we need good, hard wood; that doesn't smoosh under compression. On slanted, can still go with some softer wood. i also think have better luck on horizontals with a heavier side; if i undercut that side deeper(first) to give it more leverage multiplier of hold/support than the lighter side.

Applying thoughts like this; makes it easier to see how Swing Dutchy/Kerf in Face to help you.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

Ahhh... The venerable snap cut. A favorite of mine. I use them on small and large pieces whenever appropriate. A must for alot of my GRCS rigging. There is nothing like being able to set your rigging, make a cut then get aout of the way while the groundperson 'snaps' the piece free with a turn of the handle.
grin.gif

Tony
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

You've got a real knack for picking the CG... pretty work.

...and I'm really glad you don't wear that kilt (skirt or whatever that is) when you're climbing.
eek.gif
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

Awesome video. It definately looks like you could have used a bigger crane, but that 30ton took some pretty big picks.

"A must for alot of my GRCS rigging. There is nothing like being able to set your rigging, make a cut then get aout of the way while the groundperson 'snaps' the piece free with a turn of the handle"

Sometimes I really wish I had one of those, but not quite worth it considering alot of the trees around here are smaller.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

Phil,

A couple of comments on your sling setup.

Using two slings and a connector is a good idea. that allows the climber to lower or drop the tip piece.

If a biner is used for the connector there are some things to consider. Either use slings with tight eyes or girth hitch the biners. It is very easy to have the biner cross loaded since the sling connection is in motion.

After the cut, the piece is hanging. The climber now has to lift the sling up over the nose of the biner to drop the piece. If the piece is heavy this can really be hard and puts lots of strain on the climber.

Adding a Munter Mule or some load releasing hitch to the connector makes the drop much easier and controllable.

This method of dropping loads works really well when a rigging point is not strong enough to take the shock load. Or the rigging point may be off in another direction. This setup can be used in a redirect fashion. Rig off of itself like you did then do a load transfer to lower the cut piece out of the tree.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

I don't think anyone would use the two-loop (or one long loop girthed on itself and then clipped on with a 'biner) backup unless they felt they could handle it afterward.
I am a big fan of snap cuts, breaking cuts, whatever you may call them. You certainly do have to be judicious when using them, especially the horizontal ones, or on any wood without centered weight. The keys are knowing your species to make your cuts appropriately distant from each other, and cutting perpendicular to the forces of gravity on them (this is with non-centered weight). I don't think it's the best idea to think of them as a hinge at all, TreeSpyder, but I think I know what you mean. There is no hinge action other than the adhesion of fibers before they separate in the cleaving action of the wood as you break it free. The reason you can break it is because there is no hinge, wood is weak to cleave along the grain, the same way that you can split firewood along the grain but not against it (don't try it, trust me). There's not really a compression tension component in the action, though you will have compression and tension wood in the piece itself which may come into play in holding the limb before you break it free. Am I describing this well at all?
Something people might get into doing when trying to break large vertical pieces of fibrous wood— which sometimes don't want to come free by tipping only a kerf width over— would be making a narrow face cut on the side you want it to go, so that it will tip just a bit farther that way before it breaks free.
I think that "snap-cuts" are pretty ineffective in crane removals. Whenever you force a crane to move a piece, you're introducing more dynamics than you need to. I mean, it's nearly impossible at times to eliminate the need for boom movement, but a majority of the time you should be able to figure out your rigging and cuts out well enough to just cut straight through smoothly.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

I look at appropriate use of the snap cut as a hallmark of an experienced, competent trimmer. It does require that you know your wood, be able to accurately gauge the tension and leverage on the piece, and it shows a marked level of control.
when I see someone who just lets the debris fall where ever it lands, I always see it as a sign of inability, inexperience, or sheer disregard for the pace and progress of the job as a whole.

on a side note: Sorry that Kevin got all butthurt about the guy freeclimbing, but it was his day off and his vacation, and if thats how he chose to spend it, it was fine with me.
 
Re: i never hear nobody talkin \'bout it

Great work Reg!

i've expanded my definition of hinge to be anything connected after enough back cut is taken that the connection itself can't solidly hold the load(or something like that)... A close in face; or a no face that is alive/ loaded with power; gets caught in this 'wider' net/definition.

Though a kerf might not be considered a hinge; i think once enough back cut is taken that it is 'alive'/loaded i think it fits the definition. Perhaps if i said closed hinge; it (kerf)would be closer to being seen as hinge. A dutch swing is a hinge; so is a poorly maid hinge that barberchairs because of the horizontal cut bypasssing or purpusefully cut as a kerf in the face later. To me so is a back cut with no face; that rips/ hinges over. If you hinge something thru face and back cuts; and it moves 1 degree and hits an obstacle in foreground; it would still be a hinge. If that obstacle was moved closer/into the face (rock/block/kerf); i think it is still a hinge.

Basically, because it is loaded/alive and still connected. If you look at the swing dutchy link; i think you can see a very binary (if loaded/alive; then)"if open(tension) or closed(compression)" set of mechanical commands for attached/not free loads.

i think on the horizontal with (vertical)snap cuts; we are trying to assimilate a situation where the saw would cut thru so quick, the load would just drop straight down/not come back; because cut was so quick, inertia held the load in place, until the lack of support was 'noticed'; then load just fell straight down. Or like if we could support the load by hand or rope, cut thru, then drop suddenly straight down/ and not come back. Whereby, we make a quickly closed hinge(kerf face); who's distance from the close to the holding fibers gives enough support(like a hand or rope supporting it for us); that the leverage leaves the tension /holding fibers fairly at ease. This gives no internal rip/fibre disturbance(or minimizes it); and a quick sudden release from just a few fibers able to hold the load, then quickly cut. If there had to be a bunch more fibres( especially from not very much distance between the close and the holding fibers); there would be more tension in the fibers and more of the fibers. So, more rip/pull-fibre disturbance; and slower release(less sudden release, giving more chance to let load swing back some).

Really polished on a horizontal snap cut; is such a quick slam closed in the 'face'; then immediate release; as to make the load jump outwards a few inches or so from the slamming force's reactive forces(?).

For some of this, i try to undercut/kerf deeper on the heavier side of the load, and then come in from the sides, to leave less fibre to fly thru with saw/kinda like having a faster saw. i might even cit slanted from bath sides on top, to leave a triangle of holding wood to fly thru faster on downward/back cut.
 
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