Gorman
Branched out member
- Location
- Rhode Island
I bought a silky hayuachi pole saw to do more tip reductions this year. I like how it had much less flex than two or especially three Jameson poles. You get more control.
selling mature crown reduction to average folks
- Thread starter Liam
- Start date
Redtree
Participating member
- Location
- Mt. Albert
I have way too much to say here. Great thread. Spiels. I like that.
The customer gives their demands in order to achieve their objective. Then we often jump on it too quickly. Often, I prep for this spiel and when they call for removal I quickly ask why. But with a nice tone, knowing they have a good reason right beside their misunderstanding. Then when they say why, I say, "yes I understand, maybe the tree should be removed but maybe pruning can change the tree more than you think, in order to suit your needs."
You've said you understand yet you also planted a seed. This at least gets them to consider other options. Even if the request is to remove a limb and not a tree I often plant the seed: "yes the limb might need removal but it might be better for long term safety and tree health to reduce it". Then when you get there you can say "wow this is a beautiful silver maple, a ten out of ten [emoji6]. A lovely multi stemmer. A great species for shading the house and yard". And to address concerns, "you were right, we definitely need roof clearance and reduction is best to avoid large INJURIES, as cuts are injuries". And to turn what they said around. "You're right again, your roof is a target, sun damage is worse on this south side, see your neighbours are curled. The shade HELPS the roof as long as it's clear for air movement and no rubbing". "We should reduce these lower horizontal limbs for clearance and risk, but see those tall 45 degree limbs, they are a main concern here. As well as those tall uprights, the ones that failed in Toronto last winter. Those 45 degree limbs are reaching to the top corner of a square shaped top. Long and leaning. It's not easy, but if we reduce those, we can reduce risk and slowly make the tree a more natural, stronger, TRIANGULAR shape."
This is the part that is often missing. The upper canopy work. I've sold it under par and at par. But I've sold it a lot. We could argue about climbing and buckets all day. I have no opinion, having no bucket experience. but I think both ways can be, and are done well and poorly. The bucket gets a bad name, but the chainsaw deserves that bad name in pruning more often. I also think a guy in the bucket would maybe do better with climbing experience under his belt. And either way a pole pruner or manual pole saw is a necessity 90% of the time.
We can get to these reduction cuts efficiently. Especially if we worry less about the perfection of the smaller cuts. 2" cuts are near perfect. 1" cuts are mostly good. 1/2" cuts are sometimes not as good. Not that any cuts are horrible, but sometimes we can leave a small piece on past a node. It's better than rubbing on the branch to be retained. The point is that we can't spend all day making each cut perfectly. AND WE CANT MOVE CUTS FURTHER IN TO MAKE IT EASIER EITHER. We can't make less cuts and still be thorough enough. We can't come every year, so we need to be thorough and well weighted with reduction applications.
Selling reduction is definitely not easy and I really worry that it's not sold enough. It's one thing to miss a risk tree completely, but to remove a tree that needed only minor reduction or partial reduction is a problem. The problem is not that it's removed. It's that it's removed without at least STRONGLY recommending reduction and INFORMING about reduction. We all know where we've done this. Like filling our gas tanks, do we become comfortably numb? But I think we've all questioned, 'maybe I could have sold them on reduction?'
The reality is, we can only sell it to those who can afford it. And then we can only sell it if we make the client understand. The most obvious and inexpensive way to manage trees is to simply let them grow and fail and clean up after. It's not horrible. Slightly higher risks, but usually a wild garden, full of shade.
I often show up, listen to the concerns then redirect to bigger concerns and end up landing a job the client didn't even consider previously. What would have happened if 'the customers always right,' guy showed up. Consulting at its best. Most of us do this. The other guy makes 14" stem cuts and calls it trimming cause the client asked, can you trim this limb off?
The obvious way to sell reduction is as a cheaper option to removal. Whether it's for a perceived risk or nuisance reason, removal is usually not justified. Of course I still do a lot of removals but I also revert to reduction a lot. Use all the ammo, shade, privacy, wind blocking. Look at the site. A good one is, "so you'd rather look at a brick wall?" Or "you'd rather let the west wind through to your patio?"
Not rarely but not frequently, we meet a tree that we know desperately 'needs' reduction, or even retrenchment. A tree like this which is close to a house will likely save the owner money if it's reduced. Two higher costs of not maintaining your trees WILL show up otherwise. 1. Failure causing damage due to unreduced vulnerabilities. 2. Failure leading to complete removal of a beneficial tree, due to new risk or perceived risk.
So this 'reduce it or pay later' is often an easy sell. Especially with a tree over a house. But please don't sell reduction on a white oak because it's close to the house. Red oak maybe rarely, silver maple almost always. Weeping willow, even more almost always.
Here's where things get interesting. Soft hardwoods in civilized spaces. And we can dream about better species all day and planting them will help. But right now we are covered in softwoods. Exotic, non-native, invasive, European. I don't give a shit. I'm European. So are you. We're successful, we can't help it. We are a vigorous, invasive, waspy, European pain in the ass. Norways and buckthorn too. Norways aren't horrible. Phasing them out completely is optimistic and near impossible. Reducing their numbers is reasonable and somewhat likely. Manitoba Maples are heritage trees in Manitoba. And likely native to parts of Ontario.
Silvers are native and should STAY on the planting list as they have proven to be valuable, not just breakable. We can fix 'breakable'.
Options for the amount of work applied to a tree can be given. I often go for one number for complete reduction, unless I sense a partial option is necessary or more affordable. Don't try to fit a complete reduction into an affordable price. Try to fit an appropriate price to an appropriate application. In silver maples a complete application is often the supreme option. But temporary supports or temporary low risk can facilitate complete reduction over many years, dividing the cost for the client. I'm lucky to have a lot of clients with a lot of money as well. I doubt it's like this everywhere.
A great option is reduction over time while accepting a short term low risk for the unreduced portion. The priorities can be dealt with first but for some trees the whole thing is a priority.
I would go so far to say that all the soft hardwoods in range of a target are a priority. Not that they all will get reduced. But those that do will avoid failure and live longer. Silvers in Toronto are removed due to risks and perceived risks around old failure points. Or due to decline after dealing with multiple old failures. Old age for silvers is not definable. But it is extendable. Brush your teeth and stay light, you live longer. Control the extension of a silver, and it lives longer, it's that simple. influencing the leading edge is not new but it is the future for main stream tree care. It is not about tree maintenance either as much as it is about producing tree quality. Canopy quality via canopy control. We aren't limiting canopy size, we're limiting canopy vulnerability. And when we do this carefully, we improve quality, benefits, and longevity. Growing fast is good. When we direct and control this consistently and not instantly, we improve structure for the long term. By growing the urban canopy slower, we can actually grow it bigger. Unless there is a set amount of soil. Then I think we do need to limit canopy, not just control it. This is a huge issue. Expecting something out of nothing. Better off pollarding or bonsai pruning to suit soil volume. Otherwise the tree will stunt itself and stress. Again, the cost of not maintaining trees.
I've made $10 an hour reducing and I've made $160 an hour reducing. Sometimes I underestimate. But it has been an investment in my reputation. And if we all do this it will be an investment
You need to estimate time and add 25%. Then you need to make sure the client knows what they are getting, exactly. In my opinion a soft hardwood rarely does its best with anything less than a complete reduction. But it can do almost it's best with only 30 % of the possible application, applied to the priorities. But remember, uprights and stems reaching to the top upper outer part of the crown are often the priority, and low horizontals are often perceived as a priority. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not.
Luckily, most people already appreciate trees. Most people understand the concept of reduction and structural improvement.
Good night it's 1 am. But I want to share some reduction prices later. The willow on the reduction thread I've done three times. Each time around $800. Low but not for my overhead. And extremely rewarding. The ginko I think was $900. Now I think it was worth $2000 but hey, I still made around $500 that day.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The customer gives their demands in order to achieve their objective. Then we often jump on it too quickly. Often, I prep for this spiel and when they call for removal I quickly ask why. But with a nice tone, knowing they have a good reason right beside their misunderstanding. Then when they say why, I say, "yes I understand, maybe the tree should be removed but maybe pruning can change the tree more than you think, in order to suit your needs."
You've said you understand yet you also planted a seed. This at least gets them to consider other options. Even if the request is to remove a limb and not a tree I often plant the seed: "yes the limb might need removal but it might be better for long term safety and tree health to reduce it". Then when you get there you can say "wow this is a beautiful silver maple, a ten out of ten [emoji6]. A lovely multi stemmer. A great species for shading the house and yard". And to address concerns, "you were right, we definitely need roof clearance and reduction is best to avoid large INJURIES, as cuts are injuries". And to turn what they said around. "You're right again, your roof is a target, sun damage is worse on this south side, see your neighbours are curled. The shade HELPS the roof as long as it's clear for air movement and no rubbing". "We should reduce these lower horizontal limbs for clearance and risk, but see those tall 45 degree limbs, they are a main concern here. As well as those tall uprights, the ones that failed in Toronto last winter. Those 45 degree limbs are reaching to the top corner of a square shaped top. Long and leaning. It's not easy, but if we reduce those, we can reduce risk and slowly make the tree a more natural, stronger, TRIANGULAR shape."
This is the part that is often missing. The upper canopy work. I've sold it under par and at par. But I've sold it a lot. We could argue about climbing and buckets all day. I have no opinion, having no bucket experience. but I think both ways can be, and are done well and poorly. The bucket gets a bad name, but the chainsaw deserves that bad name in pruning more often. I also think a guy in the bucket would maybe do better with climbing experience under his belt. And either way a pole pruner or manual pole saw is a necessity 90% of the time.
We can get to these reduction cuts efficiently. Especially if we worry less about the perfection of the smaller cuts. 2" cuts are near perfect. 1" cuts are mostly good. 1/2" cuts are sometimes not as good. Not that any cuts are horrible, but sometimes we can leave a small piece on past a node. It's better than rubbing on the branch to be retained. The point is that we can't spend all day making each cut perfectly. AND WE CANT MOVE CUTS FURTHER IN TO MAKE IT EASIER EITHER. We can't make less cuts and still be thorough enough. We can't come every year, so we need to be thorough and well weighted with reduction applications.
Selling reduction is definitely not easy and I really worry that it's not sold enough. It's one thing to miss a risk tree completely, but to remove a tree that needed only minor reduction or partial reduction is a problem. The problem is not that it's removed. It's that it's removed without at least STRONGLY recommending reduction and INFORMING about reduction. We all know where we've done this. Like filling our gas tanks, do we become comfortably numb? But I think we've all questioned, 'maybe I could have sold them on reduction?'
The reality is, we can only sell it to those who can afford it. And then we can only sell it if we make the client understand. The most obvious and inexpensive way to manage trees is to simply let them grow and fail and clean up after. It's not horrible. Slightly higher risks, but usually a wild garden, full of shade.
I often show up, listen to the concerns then redirect to bigger concerns and end up landing a job the client didn't even consider previously. What would have happened if 'the customers always right,' guy showed up. Consulting at its best. Most of us do this. The other guy makes 14" stem cuts and calls it trimming cause the client asked, can you trim this limb off?
The obvious way to sell reduction is as a cheaper option to removal. Whether it's for a perceived risk or nuisance reason, removal is usually not justified. Of course I still do a lot of removals but I also revert to reduction a lot. Use all the ammo, shade, privacy, wind blocking. Look at the site. A good one is, "so you'd rather look at a brick wall?" Or "you'd rather let the west wind through to your patio?"
Not rarely but not frequently, we meet a tree that we know desperately 'needs' reduction, or even retrenchment. A tree like this which is close to a house will likely save the owner money if it's reduced. Two higher costs of not maintaining your trees WILL show up otherwise. 1. Failure causing damage due to unreduced vulnerabilities. 2. Failure leading to complete removal of a beneficial tree, due to new risk or perceived risk.
So this 'reduce it or pay later' is often an easy sell. Especially with a tree over a house. But please don't sell reduction on a white oak because it's close to the house. Red oak maybe rarely, silver maple almost always. Weeping willow, even more almost always.
Here's where things get interesting. Soft hardwoods in civilized spaces. And we can dream about better species all day and planting them will help. But right now we are covered in softwoods. Exotic, non-native, invasive, European. I don't give a shit. I'm European. So are you. We're successful, we can't help it. We are a vigorous, invasive, waspy, European pain in the ass. Norways and buckthorn too. Norways aren't horrible. Phasing them out completely is optimistic and near impossible. Reducing their numbers is reasonable and somewhat likely. Manitoba Maples are heritage trees in Manitoba. And likely native to parts of Ontario.
Silvers are native and should STAY on the planting list as they have proven to be valuable, not just breakable. We can fix 'breakable'.
Options for the amount of work applied to a tree can be given. I often go for one number for complete reduction, unless I sense a partial option is necessary or more affordable. Don't try to fit a complete reduction into an affordable price. Try to fit an appropriate price to an appropriate application. In silver maples a complete application is often the supreme option. But temporary supports or temporary low risk can facilitate complete reduction over many years, dividing the cost for the client. I'm lucky to have a lot of clients with a lot of money as well. I doubt it's like this everywhere.
A great option is reduction over time while accepting a short term low risk for the unreduced portion. The priorities can be dealt with first but for some trees the whole thing is a priority.
I would go so far to say that all the soft hardwoods in range of a target are a priority. Not that they all will get reduced. But those that do will avoid failure and live longer. Silvers in Toronto are removed due to risks and perceived risks around old failure points. Or due to decline after dealing with multiple old failures. Old age for silvers is not definable. But it is extendable. Brush your teeth and stay light, you live longer. Control the extension of a silver, and it lives longer, it's that simple. influencing the leading edge is not new but it is the future for main stream tree care. It is not about tree maintenance either as much as it is about producing tree quality. Canopy quality via canopy control. We aren't limiting canopy size, we're limiting canopy vulnerability. And when we do this carefully, we improve quality, benefits, and longevity. Growing fast is good. When we direct and control this consistently and not instantly, we improve structure for the long term. By growing the urban canopy slower, we can actually grow it bigger. Unless there is a set amount of soil. Then I think we do need to limit canopy, not just control it. This is a huge issue. Expecting something out of nothing. Better off pollarding or bonsai pruning to suit soil volume. Otherwise the tree will stunt itself and stress. Again, the cost of not maintaining trees.
I've made $10 an hour reducing and I've made $160 an hour reducing. Sometimes I underestimate. But it has been an investment in my reputation. And if we all do this it will be an investment
You need to estimate time and add 25%. Then you need to make sure the client knows what they are getting, exactly. In my opinion a soft hardwood rarely does its best with anything less than a complete reduction. But it can do almost it's best with only 30 % of the possible application, applied to the priorities. But remember, uprights and stems reaching to the top upper outer part of the crown are often the priority, and low horizontals are often perceived as a priority. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not.
Luckily, most people already appreciate trees. Most people understand the concept of reduction and structural improvement.
Good night it's 1 am. But I want to share some reduction prices later. The willow on the reduction thread I've done three times. Each time around $800. Low but not for my overhead. And extremely rewarding. The ginko I think was $900. Now I think it was worth $2000 but hey, I still made around $500 that day.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited:
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
Get some wood handled polesaws .. Particularly basswood is my favorite, ash and hemlock are more easily acquired.. and you will not have any desire to handle a hayuachi or fiberglass up the tree ever again.
TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
Redtree, with all due respect sir, it would behoove you to stick to a hundred word maximum per post. Just a word of advice and not meant as an insult; maybe try to be more concise or succinct.
From the great movie, "Robin Hood: Men In Tights":
Sheriff: Yes, you put it succinctly.
Don Giovanni: Suck what?
Sheriff: Succinctly. It means "perfectly."
Don Giovanni: Oh, yeah. I knew that.
From the great movie, "Robin Hood: Men In Tights":
Don Giovanni: And you want Robin rubbed out...eliminated, maybe even killed.Sheriff: Yes, you put it succinctly.
Don Giovanni: Suck what?
Sheriff: Succinctly. It means "perfectly."
Don Giovanni: Oh, yeah. I knew that.
Gorman
Branched out member
- Location
- Rhode Island
Really? I've handle some and they seem to have a lot of flex.
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
I know the guy writes novels, its cool for me early morning drinking coffee , sometimes I'm like wow he's still going!
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
I don't mind that flex as a sacrifice for lightness ..with a sharp blade the flex issue becomes less of an issue for myself .
TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
And don't get me wrong Redtree, you have some great stuff to say, but I've only made it through about half your post so far. 
I was running late this morning.
I was running late this morning.
Redtree
Participating member
- Location
- Mt. Albert
No prob tree logic. I hear you on that. I could wander less. Having a wandering mind has been an advantage and a disadvantage. ADD or natures way, "I'll always be a dreamin' man I don't have to understand, I know it's alright."- Neil Young
But yes, that's good advice tree logic.
I actually get a lot of anxiety from those posts. I just think new arborists can and should learn reduction faster and sooner than Myself and others did. It should be easier to become a reduction pro. And I think it's going that way as. Communication and awareness is improving.
99, 100 [emoji2]
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But yes, that's good advice tree logic.
I actually get a lot of anxiety from those posts. I just think new arborists can and should learn reduction faster and sooner than Myself and others did. It should be easier to become a reduction pro. And I think it's going that way as. Communication and awareness is improving.
99, 100 [emoji2]
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TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
I have the same brain Redtree
It's a very creative mindset, but in a job interview I could totally be like, "Hey, a butterfly! Now what were we talking about again? "That reminds me; I need more Adderall.
Last edited:
TCtreeswinger
Branched out member
Don't mean to derail but do you guys have any links to HOW to reduce? I just sat in on a class at the short course in mn and it was more..hey look we reduced these trees and look their not falling apart! Not exactly what I was looking for. Anything would be appreciated!
TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
Don't know if you've tried the ARS but I didn't find much difference between the two and it's a good bit cheaper. Both are great polesaws IMO.
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=214&item=1177
Redtree
Participating member
- Location
- Mt. Albert
I've been using hyauchi pole for both the saw and regular Marvin. I can't see anything being better than the lightness of the aluminum AND the ability to work in 5 foot increments. I actually have an extra two feet on the short piece that holds the Marvin, to make increments of 7,12,17and 22. And stiffer than the wood one at Ontario show.
TCtreeswinger, very good point, bla bla bla, but We need more 'how to'. I wish I focused more on that in Ontario. There has been some how to on the reduction thread and on the nodes thread. But mostly bla bla. Some pics but pics are very limiting. Google 'Henry David pruning' and a good schematic pic shows up. Plus a video I want to watch. Got the name from Guy
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TCtreeswinger, very good point, bla bla bla, but We need more 'how to'. I wish I focused more on that in Ontario. There has been some how to on the reduction thread and on the nodes thread. But mostly bla bla. Some pics but pics are very limiting. Google 'Henry David pruning' and a good schematic pic shows up. Plus a video I want to watch. Got the name from Guy
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited:
Redtree
Participating member
- Location
- Mt. Albert
I also don't mind replying to myself. I talk to myself more than to anyone else anyway. Funny though, I don't always believe myself.
I could write a novel on "how to". Actually I do plan on it or an article and this site helps me think of how to package it. Great feedback and info to ponder.
So far the 'how to' is missing something. I think it's the tree. So the best how to's of the future will be in tree sessions where pointing out a situation and saying 'see' will save hours of novel writing on tree buzz. Pictures are limited almost as much as words. And often the before tree is good already. Like you want to say ' leave it alone idiot '. Schematic drawings have a scale issue. With no diameter reference, they mean little. Big trees have cuts appearing smaller on a schematic. Videos are better than pictures but also are limiting.
Next time I post a novel I'll try to remember to keep it in the 'reduction is unnatural?' thread. What the heck. Ill do a 'how to', take 1.
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I could write a novel on "how to". Actually I do plan on it or an article and this site helps me think of how to package it. Great feedback and info to ponder.
So far the 'how to' is missing something. I think it's the tree. So the best how to's of the future will be in tree sessions where pointing out a situation and saying 'see' will save hours of novel writing on tree buzz. Pictures are limited almost as much as words. And often the before tree is good already. Like you want to say ' leave it alone idiot '. Schematic drawings have a scale issue. With no diameter reference, they mean little. Big trees have cuts appearing smaller on a schematic. Videos are better than pictures but also are limiting.
Next time I post a novel I'll try to remember to keep it in the 'reduction is unnatural?' thread. What the heck. Ill do a 'how to', take 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TCtreeswinger
Branched out member
Redtree that's what I have a hard time with. I totally understand the concept and have done it (most likely overdoing it). I'd just like to see it in "numbers". I've removed too many trees and limbs that I feel could have be saved as is. As I strike out on my own I want to concentrate on pruning and retention of trees. Being able to sell it is crucial obviously so any proven experience I can absorb is for the better. If you wanna write a novel you can pm me anytime
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
TreeLogic, not being argumentative here, just casting a vote in favor of whatever Redtree feels like writing. I'm pretty new to all of this stuff, and I found the entirety of his post very informative. I find hearing a man go through the process of how his mind works in a certain situation to be really interesting.
This subject and the subtleties in the decision making process with regard to species differences is pretty much fascinating to me. I love to hear a veteran spout his knowledge so freely like that. Thanks for listening.
Tim
Redtree
Participating member
- Location
- Mt. Albert
Thanks Tim
I just posted a long 'how to' but on my own thread to be less invasive. I do know I go overboard. But it's so hard to generalize and details are what reduction should be about.
But for fun here is a short 'how to':
The one size fits every tree app, two doses:
1st app
-Mark the tree at every 1.5" diameter point.
-Cut just above the first node below each mark
-if overdose is expected, reduce diameter to 1".
Youve just calibrated yourself to know a 1.5" cut.
It's accomplished a lot of what reduction is about. I'll maybe try it some day and post pics[emoji15]. I bet it would be a good app. Easy to instruct. Thorough. Non invasive. Taper improvement. Strength improvement.
Second app in three to five years:
-cut below half of first app cuts
-cut above the other half. One or two growth rings in each direction. Now you've got options.
Significant risk reduction after second app. Mass production reduction for cities. I dunno, sometimes I just say stuff
Systematic reduction?
It's not really crotch relative. It's nodal and diameter relative.
Not ideal, I'm just playing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I just posted a long 'how to' but on my own thread to be less invasive. I do know I go overboard. But it's so hard to generalize and details are what reduction should be about.
But for fun here is a short 'how to':
The one size fits every tree app, two doses:
1st app
-Mark the tree at every 1.5" diameter point.
-Cut just above the first node below each mark
-if overdose is expected, reduce diameter to 1".
Youve just calibrated yourself to know a 1.5" cut.
It's accomplished a lot of what reduction is about. I'll maybe try it some day and post pics[emoji15]. I bet it would be a good app. Easy to instruct. Thorough. Non invasive. Taper improvement. Strength improvement.
Second app in three to five years:
-cut below half of first app cuts
-cut above the other half. One or two growth rings in each direction. Now you've got options.
Significant risk reduction after second app. Mass production reduction for cities. I dunno, sometimes I just say stuff
Systematic reduction?
It's not really crotch relative. It's nodal and diameter relative.
Not ideal, I'm just playing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
May 2003 (archived at tcia.org). Henry Davis’
pruning specifications include:
●● Objectives: safety, survival, aesthetics
●● Inspect tree structure
closely, and at a distance. Consider
supplemental support systems
●● Locate dominant leaders, and an ‘inner
crown’ to regenerate
●● Choose 4-10 large branches that could
be reduced or removed
●● Start pruning from the top down,
heaviest side first, tips last
Telescoping poles seem like a good way to go. How does one keep an unneeded section handy for later?
pruning specifications include:
●● Objectives: safety, survival, aesthetics
●● Inspect tree structure
closely, and at a distance. Consider
supplemental support systems
●● Locate dominant leaders, and an ‘inner
crown’ to regenerate
●● Choose 4-10 large branches that could
be reduced or removed
●● Start pruning from the top down,
heaviest side first, tips last
Telescoping poles seem like a good way to go. How does one keep an unneeded section handy for later?
TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
Fair enough.
New threads New posts
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