Self tending climbing system

  • Thread starter Thread starter rich_h
  • Start date Start date
Thats my point Leon - 'some' high tech cords will melt, some won't, some uffer flex fatigue, others less so. This was covered quite succinctly in the comparison research I attached in this thread.

I'm playing devils advocate - people are buying and selling these cords without understanding their limitations.

Perhaps the most worrying misunderstanding is those that use spectra/dyneema. They are impressed by its great strength. But its slipperiness, even when covered with polyester, needs a triple sliding Barrel knot to secure it. And when the polyester cover burns, the core will be snuffed out on a descent in an instant (as I have witnessed).

Great strength in a hitch cord isn't needed. 1700Kg break strength is adequate.

Other concerns I noted, was the very poor energy absorption in some of the drop tests. The polyester braids kept forces around the 600kg mark (similar to the 6kN recommended limit), the high tech cord was significantly higher, and turned into a coat hanger type stiffness.

There is a lot to consider, so why risk putting these cords in use? Yes, a heat resistant core will provide security against burn through, but that is unlikely with a double braid nylon/polyester. And compared to the other considerations such as cost, knotability, flex fatigue and UV, the research I posted earlier (and again here) has pursuaded me that its not really worth it. Just my considered opinion - offering balance to the debate.

A failure in sailing isn't likely to have the same consequence as in treework. Because we have no back up from mortal injury, I prefer to have a 'secure' system over an unecessarily 'strong' one.
 

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That is some interesting information in that report, Lazarus. If you have any other similar articles that you could share I would appreciate it.
 
Thanks.

Regarding the TreeFlex - some things in life are worth waiting for...........

/forum/images/graemlins/zha.gif

Just teasin.........more info soon!
 
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Perhaps the most worrying misunderstanding is those that use spectra/dyneema. They are impressed by its great strength. But its slipperiness, even when covered with polyester, needs a triple sliding Barrel knot to secure it. And when the polyester cover burns, the core will be snuffed out on a descent in an instant (as I have witnessed).


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I say this all the time. Breaking strength is rarely the most important characteristic to consider when choosing a rope. The dyneema/spectra lines have a melting point about 100* less than nylon and polyester!

Oh, rich- the splices look great. The clear photos make your ideas come across perfectly! I like the idea with the thimble inside the Brummell. I've done that before by whipping both sides of the brummel to leave a little eye, but I like that thimble better!

love
nick
 
Thanks Nick for the compliments. Do you have any input on using steel thimbles instead of plastic?? I am not quite comfortable with having the cord rubbing on metal, but it may offer some benefits.
 
Thanks for the advice Norm. I was leaning that way as well, but just wasn't sure if maybe there was a better solution.
 
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There is a lot to consider, so why risk putting these cords in use?

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Why risk it? Everything you do in this line of work is a risk. You put the odds in your favor by several means, one of which is education. Yes, there are people "misusing" these ropes. But there ARE great advantages to them and it's worth doing a little bit of research so that you can use these fibers to your advantage.

I for one think several of the fibers make great hitch cords, speed lines, ascent lines, etc.

Don't shy from them because they are new. That leads to stagnation.

love
nick
 
Is it metal thimbles that ruin ropes? Or is it bad metal thimbles that ruin ropes?

I've only used stainless steel thimbles, which tend to be quite smooth. I could see a galvanized thimble tearing the rope up, especially if it hasn't been polished smooth prior to use.

I hate those round plastic thimbles with the slice in them. I've seen to many of them collapsed inside an eye. I've definately used many robust plastic thimbles that I don't mind using, and they typically don't have the slice in them.

love
nick
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot to consider, so why risk putting these cords in use?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why risk it? Everything you do in this line of work is a risk. You put the odds in your favor by several means, one of which is education. Yes, there are people "misusing" these ropes. But there ARE great advantages to them and it's worth doing a little bit of research so that you can use these fibers to your advantage.

I for one think several of the fibers make great hitch cords, speed lines, ascent lines, etc.

Don't shy from them because they are new. That leads to stagnation.

love
nick

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Thanks, Nick. I knew I wasn't totally wrong about this.
 
Since you're going to be in Minneapolis you should consider having a setup with you all of the time. If you can make up one with a short piece of climbing rope instead of a regular length rope you will be able to demo the setup anywhere. Toss a rope over a doorknob, back of a chair or into a ficus at a department store and you're set to jet.

See you there!

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Excellent advice Tom. For anyone going to International I will have a set up with me at most times if you are interested in seeing this system. I would be more than happy to meet up with anyone at anytime before or after the climbing competition to explain this thing a bit better.

If you miss the climbing comp but are going to the expo, I will be doing some splicing at the All Gear booth so stop by if you have any questions or want to see how the system works.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I say this all the time. Breaking strength is rarely the most important characteristic to consider when choosing a rope. The dyneema/spectra lines have a melting point about 100* less than nylon and polyester!

[/ QUOTE ]
OTOH, "melting point" and "break strength" are given precise meanings not all
so obviously applicable to practice. E.g., the knot that is stronger on a slow-pull
device might be first to break in some usage, where it is knocked about and given
abrasion some "weaker" knot might endure better. (The Grapvine/Dbl.Fish bend
is one e.g. with considerably nice protection.)

And though HMPE has the lowest melting point of fibres, I think you'll find the
Safe working temperature data provided by "yarn manufacturers and other
sources. From TTI and Noble Deton (1999)" [quoting <u>Handbook of Fibre Rope
Technology</u>
] quite surprising:

degrees Celsius for: melts - short term (10min) - long term (&gt;1month)

polyester: 258-200-50^C (!)
nylon: 260- 70-60^C
HMPE: 150- 80-60^C (!!)

It is discouraging, angering, to see how much of this stuff has been hyped
beyond reason. Rockclimbers have been buying "cordelette" cords made of
the hi-mod fibres (Technora &amp; HMPE--5/5.5mm--, mostly; nylon also used--7mm),
and the paradigm structure (3 anchor legs into "powerpoint" Overhand knot)
wasn't even tested. Its primary advocate, John Long, has recently decided to
test it (in updating some books), and found it severely wanting for distributing
force among the legs!

*knudeNoggin*
 
After incorporating the locking Brummell splices throughout both pieces of the anchor bridge the thimble stays in place much better and overall seems to be a bit more aesthetically pleasing, which doesn't mean much of anything. The length is set to make sure that you are not putting body weight on the captured thimble (when in the extended position) , but if necessary it would certainly hold body weight.

Another modification that some people are using is to eliminate the slack tending pulley altogether and just hook the boat snap onto the line under your hitch to act as a fair lead. This way you can just clip said boat snap into the thimble and you have a somewhat cleaner set up. I found that the hitch would sometimes roll over the boat snap and get kind of stuck.

Another inventive climber hooks a keychain biner from the captured thimble on the long bridge and hooks one leg of his climbing knot with it. This also acts as a nice way to advance the knot and avoids the boat snap on the hitch carabiner. All of these mods seem to have their plusses and minuses much like every other climbing system. And like other systems it takes a bit of time to get used to working on it altogether.
 
Just a reminder to those who picked up an Anchor Bridge set at the ISA trade show that you will need a # 3 swivel boat snap in order to have the system operate properly. If you are having trouble locating one let me know and I can send one out to you.

I also want to thank everyone for their comments and input on the system. I had a terrific time meeting everyone and look forward to meeting up with you all again soon.

rich
 
Here are the new splicing instructions for anyone interested in making their own. Sorry the instructions are a little hard to follow if you haven't done it before.

If you need pictures to go along with the instructions let me know and I will try to get some out to you.
 

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Here is a copy of the instructional brochure for this system. It will walk you through some of the benefits and how to set the whole thing up. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding its use.
 

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