Secondary tie-in for spurring: choked split-tail climbing line -OR- running bowline -OR- ??

No. Read it carefully and you will see the difference. 8.1.14 is about working not climbing.

"8.1.4 while working aloft, the climber shall have available a climbing line and at least one other means of being secured on his/her person at all times (e.g., an arborist climbing line and work-positioning lanyard). Two means of being secured shall be used when the climber determines that it is advantageous."

"8.1.14 Arborists working from a stem or spar without a suitable natural crotch shall select tie-in points or a tie-in method that positively prevents the climbing line from sliding down or up or off the stem during climbing operations. ..."
 
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Guess this is why I am not a lawyer!

Gotcha though, D. "While working aloft" and "working from a stem..." must be equivalent?

That is, "working from a stem" is not the same as "ascending" or "climbing"?
 
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It actually seems like any halfway decent lawyer could easily argue that "working" and "climbing"/"ascending" are equivalent because of the absolute necessity of climbing/ascending when cutting elevated in a tree. Unless the word "working" is defined very specifically in Z133, I'm kind of skeptical.

Edit: I looked in the glossary/appendix and "working" is not specifically defined in there, at least. However, the entirety of Part 8 is entitled "Tree Climbing", and section 8.1 (in which both of the passages under consideration are found) is entitled "Climbing Procedures". So, if they are indeed drawing a distinct line between "ascending"/"climbing" and "working", they are playing fast and loose with their terminology. That is to say, it doesn't appear they are making a clear delineation between ascending to work height, and working itself.
 
Agreed, the wording is ambiguous. Could be much better.

The only time it mentions being tied in twice as a shall without a qualifier is 6.3.6 when operating a chainsaw.
 
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DSMc said:
Agreed, the wording is ambiguous. Could be much better.

The only time it mentions being tied in twice as a shall without a qualifier is 6.3.6 when operating a chainsaw.
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Yeah - I thought that meant then that you have no options if using the stem as a TIP; it is always cinched, and it's either set before climbing or advanced while climbing (although advancing it while climbing would require the use of a second cinched TIP to ensure that, when using the stem as a TIP, one is always cinched to it).
 
I believe the intent comes from being able to descend on a moment's notice. If you're on a naked spar with just a ddrt/Mrs system and no friction saver you can't just bomb out if need be.
 
Z'sTrees said:
I believe the intent comes from being able to descend on a moment's notice. If you're on a naked spar with just a ddrt/Mrs system and no friction saver you can't just bomb out if need be.
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Interestingly enough - way before I'd ever read or even knew what Z133 was - that was the intent of this entire thread. I think they also say in Z133 also that part of the purpose of the choked TIP when on a spar only, is to prevent one from sliding down and becoming injured.
 
LordFarkwad said:
Interestingly enough - way before I'd ever read or even knew what Z133 was - that was the intent of this entire thread. I think they also say in Z133 also that part of the purpose of the choked TIP when on a spar only, is to prevent one from sliding down and becoming injured.
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Almost everything we do is to prevent sliding down and becoming injured bud
 
LordFarkwad said:
I'm sure it is, bud - don't shoot the messenger. Just citing (I think) what Z133 says about the cinching/choking TIP when tied in to a spar.
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Lol, well u seem to have a really good grasp on most things and it shows me a lot that you already bought the z. Keep doin your research and stick with it and your gonna be good.
 
while climbing you will be well served to have a system ready which you can descend on using 1 hand
Idk if you’re working (cutting aloft) or simply climbing for fun buy hangers (widowmakers), animals (nasty coons) and insects (wasps and bald faced bastards, namely) are all hazards which you may encounter while ascending.
I have come across many, many bald faced hornets in my day and I’m happy to say I always had an escape route and BOY was I glad to have it
 
CanadianStan said:
while climbing you will be well served to have a system ready which you can descend on using 1 hand
Idk if you’re working (cutting aloft) or simply climbing for fun buy hangers (widowmakers), animals (nasty coons) and insects (wasps and bald faced bastards, namely) are all hazards which you may encounter while ascending.
I have come across many, many bald faced hornets in my day and I’m happy to say I always had an escape route and BOY was I glad to have it
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100% agree. That was my entire intent with this thread in the first place - figuring out how to do that, the ins and outs of it, etc., etc. Side benefit is not sliding down the trunk 10' when gaffing out.
 
CanadianStan said:
11 pages in !!
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Well, it does make me lean a little more towards the idea of either setting my SRS line first, or figure some way to advance it along with me, the fact that this exact thing is mentioned in the Z.

I'd kind of gone away from that idea, after seeing how many people seem to advance with just fliplines/lanyards and not worry about the possibility of sliding on a gaff out. Last time out, I used a rope lanyard and my climb line as a lanyard, and that was pretty smooth. BUT, I'm going to try more alternatives where I'm cinched/choked, next time out.
 
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The more confident you are that you won't get hurt, the faster you'll climb. Sometimes that means fiddling with your gear between climbing burst in order to set a climbing line above you.
You get better with advancing your climbing line with practice...flipology, the study and practice of dancing your rope in the tree. Sometimes a throw-weight on a steel biner on the end of your climbing rope is a great means of quick advancing. Don't knock out your teeth.




When I know that I'm already hanging on my SRT line, with my flipline and spurs as my secondary system, and can get to the ground in under 3 seconds, single-handedly in the event of a injury or illness, I can move much faster. When I'm chunking down a spar with my choking SRT system below my lanyard, I look where I'm putting my spurs, rather than simply feeling most placements, and taking much more conscious, rather than unconscious care.
 
Graeme McMahon said:
I read the post and am unsure of the context. Do you suggest there only needs to be one flipline?
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Nah he's suggesting that you can have the double redundancy of 2 lanyards but the management requriments of one if you "wrap" the 2 lanyards together, so that they effectively function as one.

Basically here's the DL with tree climbing

You should always be tied in at least once.

You should be tied in twice while cutting.

You should at any point while aloft, have a means of quickly exiting the tree and making it all the way down to the ground.

Some guys will run 2 lanyards, woven into one, so that they satisfy the redundancy principle. This protects you against one carabiner, or adjuster, failing for example but if you were to cut your lifeline with a chainsaw you'd probably cut through both in this scenario.

It also doesn't protect you against wasps or animals, since although you're tied in twice, you dont have a method of quickly exiting the tree. This is also relevant for self-sustained injuries such as chainsaw cuts or broken bones.

You can basically climb however you want, just keep these principles in mind.

1- Protection against cutting a lifeline
2- Quick exit from a tree
3- Protection against a single piece of gear failure
 
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