Secondary tie-in for spurring: choked split-tail climbing line -OR- running bowline -OR- ??

I've seen that video before.. It took me a few times to actually realize it, but the difference between the two ways being tied are compleley different methods..

In other words, you'd really have to fuck up tying it to have it come out like that.. & it's just a coincidence that they look the same in the end..

Also.. you really wanna freak out a new climber..? Show em that Facebook video of that huge old tree completely collapsing below the climber.... That was fucking wild shit!!!
Actually.. here it is..

Wow.

It appears they anticipated something like that happening.

Is there any backup/redundancy when suspended like that, or are the two TIPs to adjacent trees all you got, and if one of those go, you take a swing?

It seems like having a super high TIP in each of the adjacent trees would minimize the bodily damage incurred if either of the connections were broken. BUT, if they both were vertically near the climber and a non-negligible distance away, it seems like that could be fatal or life-changing if either gave out.
 
Wow.

It appears they anticipated something like that happening.

Is there any backup/redundancy when suspended like that, or are the two TIPs to adjacent trees all you got, and if one of those go, you take a swing?

It seems like having a super high TIP in each of the adjacent trees would minimize the bodily damage incurred if either of the connections were broken. BUT, if they both were vertically near the climber and a non-negligible distance away, it seems like that could be fatal or life-changing if either gave out.
I doubt he was even tied in at all. Actually it’s probably what saved him, otherwise he’d be in a few pieces
 
It would not be a good idea. Snaps tend to be burly and do not depend on their gates for strength like a key locking carabiner does. Gates on snaps are just there to prevent hardware from falling out when not under load and as such tend to be more easily defeated. Most steel snap gates also tend to be rather coarse and not rope friendly.
 
It would not be a good idea. Snaps tend to be burly and do not depend on their gates for strength like a key locking carabiner does. Gates on snaps are just there to prevent hardware from falling out when not under load and as such tend to be more easily defeated. Most steel snap gates also tend to be rather coarse and not rope friendly.

Makes total sense.

I'm trying to work out whether or not I want to use that secondary lanyard as an ultra short cinched tie-in, or use it as a short lanyard. In either case, I am only using it to ensure that I'm always tied in at least twice at all times, even when passing limbs.

The only thing swinging me towards wanting to cinch it, versus connecting it to the hip D's like a traditional lanyard for ascending, is that I'd like something to keep me from sliding down the tree and busting my knees up if a gaff lets loose for some reason while I'm only connected to the tree with the steel flipline.

But it's not a big deal either way. I can get over it I guess. It seems like the rope lanyard grabs sooner than the steel core when gaffing out anyway, from the couple of times I've tested it.

UPDATE: Went out yesterday and tried everything - Vortex with HH2, rope lanyard as backup only when passing limbs, cinching the climb line with a steel carabiner, descending on the HH2, towing chainsaw on saddle, ascending using steel flipline and cinched TIP at the same time, steel pads instead of leather soft pads on spurs, etc etc etc. Observations...

Advancing the cinched TIP along with the flipline is a pain to not get them crossed up. The dynamics of how those materials act when throwing them up the back of the trunk is different enough between the two, that it is difficult to smoothly ascend. Maybe it's just something I need to play with. I ended up advancing them separately most of the time. Pretty slow.

Scaffold knot (I tripled it versus only wrapping it twice before passing working end through home left by thumb when tying it) worked awesome and looked beautiful in that Vortex. Tried to add an overhand and double overhand knot around the standing part of the line, but because of all of the chaffing from cinching and un-cinching, it would continually loosen and come undone. Finally just tied a figure 8 in there and left it hanging.

Steel pads on spurs. I may have to readjust the height of these things with the different pads now, because after 30min or so, I had some major hot spots (that still hurt) on the inside of my legs, just below my knees. They are bruised as well.

Ran major risk of gaffing my climbing line or the tail of my steel flipline. How do you go about managing these? The climb line, I will allow to run out of the HH2 and over one leg, so I think that'll take care of that (or I can carry it with me up the tree perhaps). And maybe the steel flipline loose end, I can clip that into a biner on the side or rear of my saddle. I'm just concerned about the chainsaw coming into contact with anything, really) when the saw is hanging directly from my saddle on a ring through a tool carabiner, instead of at the end of it's own lanyard.

HH2 on Vortex is smooth as silk compared with the 3-strand, and I'm sure I don't have it optimized according to you guys' standards. But, it was pleasant to use.
 
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I think once you're more comfortable on gaffs, you'll think about giving up on cinching a line as a way of ascending. It's still a good technique for your 2nd tie in for when running a saw. Also it will free up the HH and climbing line for use as a 2nd lanyard for staying tied in when climbing past limbs and obstacles.
You can wrap the lanyard 540° around the spar to keep from sliding if you gaff out.
 
I think once you're more comfortable on gaffs, you'll think about giving up on cinching a line as a way of ascending. It's still a good technique for your 2nd tie in for when running a saw. Also it will free up the HH and climbing line for use as a 2nd lanyard for staying tied in when climbing past limbs and obstacles.
You can wrap the lanyard 540° around the spar to keep from sliding if you gaff out.

Maybe so. Got a higher quality flipline (Yale), so that helps some, but I'd really like to have a backup (parallel "links", rather than series, if you will).

Maybe I can run that rope lanyard in a traditional configuration and run the steel one doubled, like you are saying. The steel seems like it'd be easiest to advance when doubled. That's going to make it a little bit more painful to take around a limb tho. But that sounds look a pretty reasonable system. It's quick enough to secure a carabiner-cinched TIP for an emergency descent if needed, I guess.
 
This is so hard over the internet. It would only take an hour or two to show you how to make it all work in person. There are so many little things to know that can be missed when not seen.

Advancing two lanyards of dissimilar construction IS going to be slow and honestly, not needed.
If you choose to do this, move them separately.

When spurring keep your hands on the flipline, not the tree. I would not take a wrap around the tree unless working in tiny wood. It would be smart to wear gloves and a jacket. If you spur-out, keep holding the flipline and bring your elbows into your stomach. This will stop you almost instantly. It will also take skin if it is exposed.

Glad to hear that the Vortex and HH are working for you.
 
Maybe so. Got a higher quality flipline (Yale), so that helps some, but I'd really like to have a backup (parallel "links", rather than series, if you will).

Maybe I can run that rope lanyard in a traditional configuration and run the steel one doubled, like you are saying. The steel seems like it'd be easiest to advance when doubled. That's going to make it a little bit more painful to take around a limb tho. But that sounds look a pretty reasonable system. It's quick enough to secure a carabiner-cinched TIP for an emergency descent if needed, I guess.
So you have two steel core fliplines now? If you really want to be tied in the way you wish, maybe you should look into something like the "Treesqueeze" by BUCKINGHAM [emoji769][emoji2400][emoji2398] .... It's not overpriced i swear....lol.. You now have two steel core jobbers, why not make one out of the two & give it a try. If it were me, I'd modify it in a way that allows quick detatchment from the system & quick re-attachment back in for moving around unions. By using this tool, your flipline is cinched like it would be with a 540 wrap (or similar with the simple use of a prusik), it will keep you secure side to side & in the event of a gaff out you won't ride the spar down..
& Last but not least.. it is your 911 route as well utilizing your climbing system.

Idk about you, but for me carrying & keeping track of a seperate tool or lanyard for every, rule, concern, fear or general standard can be very overwhelming & counter productive. You spend half your time mucking about with shit instead of just advancing ball down the field.. (as you are noticing trying to flip two different style lanyards or just two lanyards at the same time to begin with & managing a total of three TIPs while encountering normal situations..) So if you can kill two of those birds with one stone, that squeeze thing may be of use. It's really just a glorified friction saver.. If it was me & i was ascending on spurs, id be fine with just that alone & valid solution to bypass unions... hence my suggestion to modify it... With what? Idk.. id say a biner but then there would be a side load debate on using the system for 911. So.. id say use a strong one that doesn't open easy... Or a quickie shackle.
 
Having gaffed out a lot lately on scarred and half dead hardwoods I still cant be bothered using a twin lanyard system as I find them clumsy unless matched in their construction, and then in straight and even spars. Only thing I can see improving things is wearing arm greaves (forearm protectors) to insulate from scuffing them as gripping the spar (preferable to getting hands caught against bark as sliding down)

I still rely on instinctively drawing feet together so that the gaffs strike back into the spar - yes a bit of a heavy landing but I still haven't had strains or injuries even after a fall of 10'-12' before gaffing back in. The forearm scratching still is annoying as it is like a henna tattoo for about a week or two until all the micro splinters come out...

And twin lanyards still didnt prevent me gaffing myself in the foot last time I climbed a thin scarred spar when spur refused to penetrate so got a bit aggressive in attempting to make it do so (it was also a very hot day). In future will make sure to keep SRT gear near to hand to use a progressive TIP to advance instead.
 
I worked for a company that required you climb with a friction hitch around the tree as you flipped up. You had to be able to gaff out and let go at the sound of a whistle. It can be done with practice. I always thought it was over kill my self.
If your not running a saw why do you feel you need a 2ed tie in? On conifers I use my climbing line and a gri gri with a steel biner to choke the tree when making big cuts. That way I could self rescue (maybe)if I had to, plus back up my lanyard should it get cut.. If I got a good over head tie in why bother whipping up the tree when you can walk up it.(SRT or a pulley)
Other then palms and some Eucalyptus your not going to fall far if you gaff out with only a lanyard around the tree.
 
Depends on who you work for, the first company I worked for required two steel core lanyards when cutting or lanyarding up a tree, also had to use steel biners on life support.

Only time I really use two is going up some conifers (advancing with the alternate lanyard for security), pruning palms, or up sketchy hardwoods (incl eucalyptus) when not using srt methods...
 
If your not running a saw why do you feel you need a 2ed tie in?

Who's not running a saw? I am. But the main motivation for the thread was that I strongly believe in backups (parallel links that each must fail, versus series links in which any one failing results in death/injury), saw or no saw.

Depends on who you work for, the first company I worked for required two steel core lanyards when cutting or lanyarding up a tree, also had to use steel biners on life support.

I've actually considered just using two steel fliplines, then tying off once at working height. Did you use mechanical adjusters on both when you ran this way?
 
Who's not running a saw? I am. But the main motivation for the thread was that I strongly believe in backups (parallel links that each must fail, versus series links in which any one failing results in death/injury), saw or no saw.



I've actually considered just using two steel fliplines, then tying off once at working height. Did you use mechanical adjusters on both when you ran this way?

Yes, as wasn’t allowed a rope lanyard, and to be honest most damage to wire core was caused by overeager groundys hacking up the tree stump before I could disconnect off the tree once descended,
 
Hey bud @LordFarkwad good job on trouble shooting your setup and asking all the questions. You seem to have a really good attitude on learning this skill. I am curious if you have reached out to a local pro yet? Wish there were some suggestions on who to look up, but we (pros) cannot stress the in person training enough.
Cutting firewood for years is super different to blowing a top out of even a dinky pine... Keep up the awesome research but please reach out for even an afternoon of hands on with a local.
-Sven
 

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