safety question about working off an srt system

2 points to address: 1. Tom's last point and 2. Girard's point about the retrievable anchor. Let me replay Tom's last point first. Tom writes,

" No, I don't one hand to cut stubs or one hand to hold my rope aside. In the scenario that you describe there are plenty of other ways to mitigate the risk of cutting the down rope.

Like I said, SRT requires the climber to change the way that they approach work. All differences and neither is safer or more risky than the other.

In your scenario we have to consider this...is SRT more risky because there is one situation that puts the climber more at-risk or is the climber more risky because they don't account for the risks."

Scenario: very dense branching on a large Doug fir, rope threads through the branches that you need to prune out. What do you do? It would seem that you can think of "plenty of other ways to mitigate the risk of cutting the down rope". I am all ears! I can think of ways to mitigate it, e.g., tying off a loop runner and pulling the rope back with that. But, then again, why not just not have to do that at all?


As to the second point made by Chris Girard about the retrievable anchor. I'm sorry, Chris, I just don't believe that on a 140 foot fir you're going to get a. the throwline threaded through all the branching as you like it and b. its not going to release the running bowline and c. you're not going to be able to pull it out from the angle that you have on the ground. Might work on certain trees, but its not going to work on big conifers.
 
It looks as if SRT might not be your aggregate best solution.

Um, I'd have to weigh in on the side of a climber is more risky because they don't account for the risks.

I'm trying to grasp something, especially in excurrent growth trees. There is no requirement for isolating the climbing line in SRT and therefore any of the consideration and time, and energy used in isolating a DdRT system becomes available for use in a comparative SRT approach.

Anchoring to the base of another tree can be advantageous. With a little rope length, there's less or no weaving through branches.
 
Tree work is dangerous

If a climber can't keep track of their rope then their awareness needs to change not the climbing system

Driving is more dangerous

Research how many people die on the roads...risk management is key

I don't think that I've ever heard of a tree climber cutting two points of connection whether it's SRT or DdRT
 
In light of the great enthusiasm for single roping that has arisen lately, there are also a great many dangers that attend to the method of working off srt. While many have pointed out that it is the climber who should always be alert and responsible, etc., we should remember that it is human nature to occassionally not be alert or responsible. In most tree outfits, people do take shortcuts despite their own best judgment to the contrary.

Yes, you say, but hey should always be safe! Always tie in twice before cutting! and so forth. And, in the unfortunate case of our brother here in Oregon, such advice would have probably saved him.

My practice is to use SRT as an ascent method and a working method of climbing only very rarely and with great forethought. Upon reaching the top of the tree using SRT, I disembark (fliplined in) and climb up and set the DdrT adjustable friction saver. All work is done out of the DdrT and I occassionally leave the SRT system in and use it to re-ascend to do the back side of the tree.

When setting climbing safety policies for a company, we have to consider the effects of such policies on our personnel in light of a variety of conditions. In most cases, I would say that large conifers should not be worked out using a SRT system, especially when significant cutting needs to occur along the pathway of the single rope. We open the door to even more accidents of the same type.
 

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The standard practice in Industrial Rope Access Srt is to include the use of a secondary life line or a work positioning lanyard.
The problem for us is at times it is overwhelmingly easier to bypass the secondary support to do the work especially on the way up.
Its more about negligence and as an employer new to Srt it has to be enforced.
I had an apprentice who consistently would foreget to lanyard in before pruning. three strikes is pretty generous in comparison to an injury.
Pray for a full recovery.



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I have always thought that SRT should be a method of ascent into the canopy and not, at least in most circumstances, an acceptable method for simultaneously working the tree. Recently, in Oregon a climber was thinning a Doug fir off of an SRT system and cut his line and fell 50 ft, badly injuring himself. Can we say, definitively, that in all but the most exceptional circumstances, SRT is not to be used as a working rope system?

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Hi guys, First post for a long time treebuzz lurker.

There is a discussion about this exact issue on the Uk arbtalk forum at the moment.

My take on it, in response to those that bring up this same issue again and again, is simply be aware of what you are doing!

With regards to SRT work positioning.. Do the benefits outweigh the problems? For me so far that is a yes. Simple! Just lanyard in and be switched on! :)
 
SRT is not for everyone. I feel like its a safer and more efficient way to work the tree. Cutting your rope has been happening as long as there has been ropes and sharp things. Complacency kills.
 
Re: safety question about working off an srt syste

I totally agree ben.Glad you commented. For me the risks don't outway the benefits in that situation but I have worked with guys that work solely srt and they would feel otherwise. I always get a little worked up when something happens and some guy out of left field wants to make a blanket rule for everyone.Every aspect of our job requires calculated risk and it should be each skilled climbers job to do the calculating.
 
Re: safety question about working off an srt syste

I think there's a decent argument that SRT work positioning may not be as efficient as SRT access and DdRT work positioning in big dense crowned conifers. SRT work climbing is still in the research and development phase, the advantages for broad crowned deciduous trees are clear. Are there really enough climbers doing "all SRT all the time" in big conifers to show that it has clear advantage in efficiency and safety over the hybrid approach (SRT access, DdRT working) Ward describes?
-AJ
 
Re: safety question about working off an srt syste

Spot on. Excellent post. If you don't want to do something.. Don't. But please don't tell me I can do something because you made a mistake. When/if I make that mistake or come close maybe I will reconsider..
crazy.gif
 
Re: safety question about working off an srt syste

couple thoughts about mitigating risk of cutting your line while climbing srt...........
1 don't terminate the rope to the tree you are working in so that the rope isn't in the way
2 if you don't have a better place to terminate the rope a sling, a biner and an extra eye to eye split tail installed as a backup just above where you are working would keep you safe and you could relocate it as needed as you work the tree.
inovation is better than out right prohibition!
 
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I don't think that I've ever heard of a tree climber cutting two points of connection whether it's SRT or DdRT

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I do there was a guy from AS that posted a fall through the roof of hotel (If I remember correctly). He lived. He claimed he cut through both his climb line and lanyard.
 
"Can we say, definitively, that in all but the most exceptional circumstances, SRT is not to be used as a working rope system?"

Moss, Efficiency and Ward's comment are different. Your statement is subjective. Ward has a blanket statement that it should not be done for safety reasons.

I don't know much about pruning large conifers as we don't have many here but I assume that I would climb them SRT, As I find it rare or unrealistic that dDRT is ever more efficient. I have ten years on dDrt and only two on SRT. One thing I do know about SRT in Conifers is that since the rope is not moving across bleeding sappy cuts, it does not get nearly as nasty as dDRT

I often work the tree SRT with a running bowline at my tie in point. I then tie the tail of my rope to the loop of the bowline allowing me to pull it out when I get down. I do this most often in simpler trees that don't require redirects or if a trunk tie will get in the way.
 
Wishes for a speedy recovery. Brightly colored lines and concentration on the task at hand enhance safety. Being aware of where your life line and body parts are located and are clear from chain ,hand , and pole saw. Where will the follow through take the cutting tool has to be considered before every cut. These all become second nature, and need to be a permanent habit.
 
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Moss, Efficiency and Ward's comment are different. Your statement is subjective. Ward has a blanket statement that it should not be done for safety reasons.

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Definitely. I'm looking at it opposite of Ward, SRT can be used as a working system for just about anything, with some potential exceptions related to efficiency. I'm not talking about safety which has been well addressed in the thread.

Climbing around in the crowns of big conifers, for me (subjectively) is easier DdRT, I use rope sleeves so sap isn't an issue at the TIP. Ropes used for SRT settings in conifers will often get sap on them, there is a slight sawing movement of the rope as the climber ascends or loads/unloads the rope during the climb. If the rope is set high in the tree (would make sense for pruning efficiency)the younger conifer limbs have thin bark, an SRT setting can cut into the cambium. Or if you're climbing in a white pine late in the summer the new cones run sap like a faucet in the upper crown, everything gets pitch on it, throwline, rope etc. doesn't matter what rope technique. However sap is no argument against using SRT as a work positioning system, just my observations from many white pine climbs.
-AJ
 
Re: safety question about working off an srt syste

[ QUOTE ]
Are there really enough climbers doing "all SRT all the time" in big conifers to show that it has clear advantage in efficiency and safety over the hybrid approach (SRT access, DdRT working) Ward describes?
-AJ

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I am just one climber, not a lot, but I do use SRT all the time now. Big trees, little trees, skinny trees, fat trees all get done SRT entry and work positioning.

I do a lot of large conifers. The advantages of the SRT work positioning don't change with the shape or type of the tree; they are still there.

I have only been doing SRT a relatively short period of time; however, I have been professionally climbing for a very long time. I have almost 40 years exclusively on doubled rope. I know that system very well. I can do anything that needs to be done to a tree on a doubled rope system. So you might want to ask yourselves why I would bother using SRT if I didn't feel it was a better option.

One of the main things you will find in doubled rope is it is a hands/upper body work mode. Using these portions of your body for your primary locomotion through the tree will wear out these body parts. Even though we try to emulate them, we are not monkeys. Our primary locomotive muscles are our legs.

In SRT climbing you use a lot of legs. It allows your hands and arms to just do the trimming/cutting work. This overall conserves a monsterous amount of energy.

One thing people must understand, as Tom and others has pointed out, this requires a different thought process and I found it quite challenging to make the switch.

I am very adaptable to new ideas so I know it was more than just being old and stuck in my ways. You have to rethink how to work the tree. But once you get it, the rewards are great.

Rope management and rope awareness are mandatory. Your life depends upon it.

Dave
 
"Ropes used for SRT settings in conifers will often get sap on them "

I've had a SRT rope stuck in a douglas fir - had to go back up and dig it out. Grand fir or white pine, forget about it. . I don't think you can deny that a ground anchor adds another risk to a working climb. A Ddrt would have to be cut above your knot to cause a sudden fall like one from a cut anchor line. Or maybe you cut the rope below you and didn't notice until you descended . . Like all aspects of this type of work, experience and planning will dictate; if the fir is too brushy to see what's going on, maybe don't work SRT. To make a blanket statement like 'SRT for ascent only' is poor policy. Maybe in some kind of climbing school or for some apprentice system, but not for professionals. People make mistakes in all professions. I heard about a similar accident in Victoria not long ago. Sh*t happens.
Good luck to my injured comrade in Oregon!
 
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