Quick question - SRT sans RW/HH in the interim

Cupressus

Cupressus

Location
Denver, CO, USA
Hello all,

I'm joining the SRT dark side...

I've been on the fence about whether to order a RW or a HH, have procrastinated until today on it, and I've got a job to do tomorrow in two fairly tall Pondos. I'd like to run SRT at least for the ascent, with an eye to eye VT or Michoacan for my backup. Is there any reason I couldn't work on the way up in this way?

Arrows in the quiver are as follows:

Hitchclimber rapide pulley
CMI hand ascender with home-stitched etrier
CMI foot ascender
beeline eye-to-eye
a mess of micropulleys
120' bandit
~40' and 110' blaze climb lines

I planned to basal tie the bandit and haul up the longer blaze as a secondary for DdRT in the event my Colorado-sized bandit is not long enough for this California-sized tree.

I know it's not ideal, but do y'all see any reason I can't make-do for tomorrow and order the rest as I go? I've ascended SRT before, but with a chest-ascender and y-harness. A VT ought to hold as well as a chest-ascender on my full weight, right?

Anyhow, any critiques would be highly appreciated, and advice on the essential SRT componentry is also welcome.

Thanks guys!
C
 
Has everyone forgotten about the Unicender?

It solves SRT ascent/descent simply and self-contained.

Cavers configured the basic single rope systems around 50 years ago using mostly hitches and biners. Nothing wrong with using hitches, everyone should know how in case the mechanicals aren't around.
 
ive done this plenty of times before my wrench i used to do it when a prune was mostly in one are then come down on a figure 8 above my hitch without ever switching over. thank god i got my wrench. youll love it bro
 
Sweet!

The third vid is about how i had it pictured. Hadn't thought about the "chest strap" to limit sit-back, however. Thanks for that! Rope bridges can be a mixed blessing, but I ain't goin' back!

And in the meantime, I'm ordering a RW, waiting for gen2 on the HH - I've never been an "early adopter."

@Moss: Any reason RADS shouldn't be set up on a traditional friction hitch, other than the fact that the grigri/id etc capture progress "faster?"

Thanks!!

C
 
I dont know anything about a 2nd gen Hitch Hiker... In a way the production model is the 2nd generation... You might find yourself waiting a long time.

As to rads with a hitch... RADS means 'rapid ascent descent system' the grigri/id/etc provides the descent, a hitch on a single line wouldnt work like that. Thats the point of the HH/RWs you cant descend safely on a hitch alone single line.

You could always make a wooden wrench yourself, there are plenty of instructions availiable, then if you like it get a production model. If not go with the HH.

Also worth noting, your SPRAT interest. The HH is the ONLY device in verticality that can be installed then ascend, and descend a taut waited line. It imposes no bend in the rope, thus can be used to descend an already in place victims line. People haven't begun to explore the rescue potential of this system yet.

Nothing; grigri, rack, atc, 8, RW, ID, rig, munter, stitch, etc can make this claim. The only other way to work on a a taut waited line would be a two/three prussick or hand ascender system, which, if you ever tried it is incredibly taxing and not worth the effort in addition to little rescue application in industrial RA.

Some things to think about! Good luck! LOW and SLOW buddy..
 
[ QUOTE ]
@Moss: Any reason RADS shouldn't be set up on a traditional friction hitch, other than the fact that the grigri/id etc capture progress "faster?"

[/ QUOTE ]

As mentioned the hitch will only capture progress but won't give you inline descent capability which is the whole point of the RADS.
-AJ
 
excellent advice, guys.

RADS would be kickass, but I don't have a descender. The wife got that one in the divorce, oddly enough.. wah wah...

I really am BUILDING my toybox as we speak, following a couple year hiatus. It's an exciting time, for sure!

Bonner: I gather from this and previous posts that you're a HUGE fan of the HH. I agree it seems like it's got some really awesome potential. And as far as a 2nd Gen, it's pretty obvious from the comment threads that there are some improvements the market would like to see. If the first wave is as successful as it seems, a second HH is inevitable - like the ZK2, there are always evolutions to me made. The only thing I REALLY would like to see is a purpose built trailing tether for ascents.

I have a RW on order as we speak. Two things made that decision for me: 1. It's slightly cheaper, which is appealing right NOW and 2. Life support is reliant on the hitch and not the device.

Regarding SPRAT: I'd like to "wait and see" on that, since the SPRAT is currently against hitches for a number of reasons (nastier job applications chief among them - rock scaling and grinding and greasing stuff) NFPA might me more apt to adopt it, since they're really a mixed-bag as far as hitches and devices go. Anyhow, that's immaterial. I'll be buying one anyway at some point. Having both tools in the box is never a bad thing, and I can use one with my rec. climbing setup when I take friends up trees too!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hello all,

I'm joining the SRT dark side...

I've been on the fence about whether to order a RW or a HH, have procrastinated until today on it, and I've got a job to do tomorrow in two fairly tall Pondos. I'd like to run SRT at least for the ascent, with an eye to eye VT or Michoacan for my backup. Is there any reason I couldn't work on the way up in this way?

Arrows in the quiver are as follows:

Hitchclimber rapide pulley
CMI hand ascender with home-stitched etrier
CMI foot ascender
beeline eye-to-eye
a mess of micropulleys
120' bandit
~40' and 110' blaze climb lines

I planned to basal tie the bandit and haul up the longer blaze as a secondary for DdRT in the event my Colorado-sized bandit is not long enough for this California-sized tree.

I know it's not ideal, but do y'all see any reason I can't make-do for tomorrow and order the rest as I go? I've ascended SRT before, but with a chest-ascender and y-harness. A VT ought to hold as well as a chest-ascender on my full weight, right?

Anyhow, any critiques would be highly appreciated, and advice on the essential SRT componentry is also welcome.

Thanks guys!
C

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like your good to go Charlie, you run into any trouble, swing by my place and you can borrow my 60ft ladder and forget all that fancy stuff.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...
Also worth noting, your SPRAT interest. The HH is the ONLY device in verticality that can be installed then ascend, and descend a taut waited line. It imposes no bend in the rope, thus can be used to descend an already in place victims line. People haven't begun to explore the rescue potential of this system yet.

Nothing; grigri, rack, atc, 8, RW, ID, rig, munter, stitch, etc can make this claim. The only other way to work on a a taut waited line would be a two/three prussick or hand ascender system, which, if you ever tried it is incredibly taxing and not worth the effort in addition to little rescue application in industrial RA.

Some things to think about! Good luck! LOW and SLOW buddy..

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute ...

A Rope Wrench {zk2} CAN be installed mid-line on a taut waited line.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute ...

A Rope Wrench {zk2} CAN be installed mid-line on a taut waited line.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be busted on a technicality ;-) RW has to put a slight bend in the rope to work. Theoretically you could ascend and descend a taut 11mm twisted steel cable with the HH. Theoretically...
-AJ
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute ...
A Rope Wrench {zk2} CAN be installed mid-line on a taut waited line.

[/ QUOTE ]
You may be busted on a technicality ;-) RW has to put a slight bend in the rope to work. Theoretically you could ascend and descend a taut 11mm twisted steel cable with the HH. Theoretically...
-AJ

[/ QUOTE ]
Wait one more minute.......

If I understand this correctly I think you are BOTH right.
I think I can install the RW on a straight line (taut) but to make it work well the line must bend as stated.

InstalledOnStraightRope.jpg
 
Both the HH and the RW have to deflect the rope, albeit slightly, to work. The HH has to pinch the rope in two places to share the load with the hitch. And, the RW has to bend the rope to share the load with the hitch. Install either the HH or the RW mid-taut-line, then transfer your weight to their respective biners. Both mechanicals do their thing, both hitches do their thing and both systems are good to go - up & down. Been there, done that ... with both, mid-line-taut with my weight.

That being said; I don't think either system is rated for rescue.
 
@ cypress, I am a HH fan, admittedly I havent used a RW though so my views arent biased per say but a little ignorant. The wrench made it all possible and Kevin himself helped prototype the HH, its following alone speaks to its quality and usefulness. The problem I had that prevented me from trying it was personal, and it was the lack of life support rating but that is neither here nor there.

@ Jack, are we talking the same thing? Someone needs to test this, weight a line with a weight of some substance, I am thinking 50lbs or more... then install a RW/hitch setup above that weight...

Will it still function? If it does with 50 lbs will it with a weight > or = to the users?

My suggestion was that if you came in from above an injured party you could descend on their line with a HH... I know that works, will it work with the RW??

@ yoyo , yes it can obviously be 'installed' I maintain that it wont function right, BUT I could be totally wrong. Kevin? Jack? anyone? video?

@ Moss... Dont buy a used HH from this guy! lol

@ cypress regarding cheaper, not to argue but buying a tether and a biner its all about the same price.. I will pick up a RW myself eventually though so I understand your needs. Regarding the 2nd gen HH the one thing people want seems to be a DRT attachment slot, due to some physics issues and test results that may never happen. We will see though!
 
[ QUOTE ]

@ Jack, are we talking the same thing? Someone needs to test this, weight a line with a weight of some substance, I am thinking 50lbs or more... then install a RW/hitch setup above that weight...
Will it still function? If it does with 50 lbs will it with a weight > or = to the users?


[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't that be the same as taking a 250 pound climber and telling him to put a little weight on the line, (50 pounds), install the RW/hitch, then hang the rest of it on the RW/hitch? It all ends up below the RW/hitch, right?
I think we are talking about ratios, whether they be a ratio of friction from a force exerted by a pinch or a force exerted by a bend. 50 pounds gives X amount of pinch/bend friction, 500 gives 10 times that friction capable of holding the 10 times more weight.
To have something that works, that ratio of friction must be less than required to hold you in place or you would never be able to go down or release the friction. Thus you need a hitch, to add the added difference of friction and make it adjustable.
Just my understanding but let me know if I'm off.
 
@ Bix: Haw haw. Quite a comedian, sir. We should grab another beer one of these days, man! Fun tree! About the only way to get a damn view of the hills around here! Cut an old antenna and a dead top out and safety pruned it. Not a bad way to spend part of a day. I'm lovin' the new toys for sure.

@ Bonner: Well you see, they're running this special on the RW right now where it includes a tether, so there's that cost. And being a climber, I'm up to my eyeballs in autolock 'biners because I can't bring myself to shell out for a spring gate one, even for accessories :s So for me right now, the price difference was $40. Like I said, I'll probably buy the HH eventually anyhow.

And if you could design one to run on rope OR cable, LOOK OUT! I don't suppose you would still call it a "Hitch" hiker though.

It seems like we need to do some experiments with weighted lines and RWs, no? In my mind, it seems like a guy would just tie their hitch first around the victim's line, install their wrench and clip in, and it doesn't SEEM like so much deflection that it would be hard to put in the line once the weight of the rescuer was on the system.

Basically what I think Yoyoman is saying, just from an intuitive level.

And lack of life-support is because it's kind of a unique device. It's not really being ASKED to support the climber, that's the hitch's job. Am I wrong in assuming the wrench would be useless on its own (with no hitch to provide line tension below)? Anyhow, I'll shut up there until I've played with it a bit.

Also @ Bix: I've been having Redwood dreams...

C
 
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