Quick question - SRT sans RW/HH in the interim

@ Cupressus: Nice to hear you got up there okay, that was a neat little tree we did, I'm hoping those photos turned out - I need to find those.

That's weird, I've been having Redwood dreams too... hmmm, maybe it's that time of year. I put a bid on two big ones surrounded by trouble down in Auburn late last year, $6,000 +, lady called back wanted to go with me but got a killer deal from a logging outfit out of Foresthill. Tough to drive by tree's you bid on but didn't get.
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Yoyo,

I dont think it will work with 50 or 200lbs below... Thats what I want to know though.

If it does however work with 50 below, will it still work with 200 below? I think definitely not, but who knows.
 
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@ Moss... Dont buy a used HH from this guy! lol

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Hey! I love my HH, not for sale ;-) I'm just working my way through RW tether improvements at the moment, HH is excellent. I really like the HH DRT, hitch behavior is superb. After I get through my current RW tether fabrication phase I'll be revisting the HH.
-AJ
 
Aah, lively discussion. I knew I was in the right place..

Since this post is now thoroughly sidetracked: I agree, Bix. Gotta let em go, I suppose. Hard to compete with those "killer deals." Let's get up a tree one of these days, huh?

Did you see the before/after pics of the oak on my site? I even gave you credit for it :p
 
Your talking about wanting the RW or HH to work when the tail of your line is weighted right? For what scenario? You can't descend on DDrt if the tail of your line is weighted or tied off. Is this really a deciding factor on what system to climb on?

Cupressus, you nailed it. Its not life support cause it doesn't support the climber it simply allows the hitch to function properly.
 
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Aah, lively discussion. I knew I was in the right place..

Since this post is now thoroughly sidetracked: I agree, Bix. Gotta let em go, I suppose. Hard to compete with those "killer deals." Let's get up a tree one of these days, huh?

Did you see the before/after pics of the oak on my site? I even gave you credit for it :p

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Yep, a climb sounds good, or a beer.

Yes, I looked at those pics today, the site is looking good. Still gotta go through that video and find those pics.

The HH looks perfect for crane work, as in JB Holdway's video in the crane thread. What a nice set up.

Did you hook up with the satellite guys? They can be worth putting up with, and you get the best views.
 
I dont think it is a deciding factor at all Derrick, I am just curious if the wrench will work in that scenario.

I was working on a hill a few months ago. It was very steep and required being roped off to go down. We rigged one rope and my partner went down on a munter, I hooked up with the HH and was able to descend the same rope at the same time just 10-20' above him. Would that work with a wrench?

If I was in a giant redwood doing a 200' drop could two climbers go down the same line at the same time with two wrenches?

Necesary no? Trivial sure. But I still want to know. I will test it myself when I get a wrench eventually but I assumed someone here could test it.

The 'real world' application I see is Alpine rescue and crevasse rescue. A roped climber falls, in a scenario where a 'extra' ropes arent exceedingly abundant. A rescuer then descends on the fallen climbers rope with the HH; then you could rig a Z-rig or other mechanical advantage system, administer first aid, or perform a myriad of other tasks before ascending back up the same line, or rigging a rappel to take the injured climber down if thats an option..

validity?
 
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If I was in a giant redwood doing a 200' drop could two climbers go down the same line at the same time with two wrenches?

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Great question! I'm dubious about that working, don't think I'd want to be the lower climber!

I understand what JB was saying about the HH putting a bend in the rope but I'm not so sure, seems like it can pinch a taut/heavily loaded rope and work for the above scenario. Some great scenarios to test though for both devices. Volunteers? ;-) Should be relatively easy to test low and slow.
-AJ
 
The HH works with two on the line, I have tested and confirmed this.

While I admire Jack I have to disagree, the HH does not require putting a 'bend' in the line. It might 'look' that way in certain situations but when everything is loaded up and weighted there is no bend, additionally it can be installed on a taut line and go straight into 'use'

The only evidence you need is to hook it up and stand on your foot ascender beneath it, it slides right up the taut line. (a rw would too, obviously. Again though what I am questioning is not the ascent but the descent of the weighted line.)
 
its a "grab" action on the HH, a-la the shunt or most ascenders (minus the teeth), yeah?

@Bix: I talked to Dwayne, need to make a follow up call to see if he got my contact email I sent. I left a message with Exwire Customer Service, not knowing which contact number on their site made sense. Will follow up with both tomorrow, actually. That stuff sounds like a good way to hone the SRT skillz and practice Big-Shottin'.

Maybe Bix and I'll give it a whirl if we get around to climbing something fun one of these days. After the climb but before the beers, perhaps.

C
 
I'm thinking that a HH may work on a weighted line if everything was just right (if the line was close to plumb).

If the line was at enough of an angle (due to deflection around hypothetical objects), the HH 'biner would lose effect as the 'biner would begin to sit plumb on the angled line, and being an oval, it would have less contact...but would most likely still work.

I'm thinking that the greater the weight, the more difficult it would be to get a RW to engage.

The more important question might be: In whatever hypothetical recuse situation we're creating, is the line rated for 2 climbers with enough safety factor?
 
This is an interesting discussion, for sure. But, somehow I got mis-quoted. I did not say the HH bends the line. I wrote:
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... The HH has to pinch the rope in two places to share the load with the hitch. And, the RW has to bend the rope to share the load with the hitch. ...

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And, true Nick, I think we were talking about different scenarios. I'll have to see what does happen with the RW if the line is shared with another climber. I'll have to test that later this week. Unless someone beats me to it. We're expecting rain for several days. It will be fun to see what happens.

And, it will be good bit of info to know - just in case!
 
Oceans

In my world, in a rescue scenario, I do whatever I have to to save my friends life. I make a decision based on experience and knowledge, not ratings. I cant think of a 'climbing' rope arb, rock, alpine, 3 strand, or otherwise I would load with 2 climbers weight. Sure there might be applications where it wouldnt be wise, given distance, obstacles, angles or slack, but thats what you evaluate and decide on.

Jack,

I must of misread you. Looking forward to yours or others results!

Cupressus,

Big shot? Bix has something a little better :)
 
That's what I hear, Nick. He hasn't shown it to me yet. I'm gonna work on him to go downhill to climb something REALLY big, and maybe he'll bring the cannon along.

Sshh, don't tell him, it'll distract him from his taxes.

C
 
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countryboypa31 .....
Cupressus, you nailed it. Its not life support cause it doesn't support the climber it simply allows the hitch to function properly.

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bonner1040 If I was in a giant redwood doing a 200' drop could two climbers go down the same line at the same time with two wrenches?


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Hope you guys don't mind me understanding what you are asking as you all have more experience than I do but I'm learning a lot working thru this.
I see several different questions being asked here and I will try to overstate the problem to understand the question.
What I am hearing is taut line, a strait line, bent line, pinched line and ratios.
Would I be right in saying that a hitch, all by itself IS life support, it will hold the climber on the line with 100% of the weight being applied but that is the problem it won't function that way, you can't release it or use it. It must have a percentage of weight or a ratio of the weight to function. It works DdRT because it is at 50%, it works with the HH and RW because it is getting a ratio or percentage of the weight. Both the HH and RW cannot work alone because they only provide a percentage or ratio of the friction required, thus not life support as they will not provide 100% of the friction needed and can't provide 100% of the friction to function. That is why all of these designs keep going back to needing a friction hitch to work. It is all about ratios. One provides function the other provides friction and they must do it together.
Now with the question of the climber below. With the RW the ratios will be upset because the weight of the climber below WILL effect the RW above as it depends on the bend and deflection of the rope. So I suspect that when the climber above is able to get the rope to bend, that extra weight will put the ratio or proportions of friction out of whack and not allow the upper climber to descend. He will have more and probably too much friction. Or if the weight is to much below, he will not be able to get the rope to bend and the RW will provide no friction. Stated another way. If there is so much weight below that the climber above is not able to bend the rope to get the friction started. No bend, no friction. (not good)
Since the HH does not have to bend the rope, only needs to pinch the rope and can work on a "strait line" AKA taut line, I would suspect that it can work from above without effecting the ratio or percentage of friction it needs to function.
So for the RW to work in this setup with the climber below, somehow they will both have to be put on the same wrench so that the ratio or percentage of friction is constant.
Again, to exaggerate to understand. Say there is 1000 pounds hanging on the rope, you put 100 pounds on your RW you probably wont get the bend to make it function. If you do get the bend to make it function, the weight below will add to the friction upsetting the ratio and not allow that RW to function.
So as I see it, both the RW and HH are not life support because they only provide less than 100% or the friction to allow the hitch to function.
For the rescue setup to work with the RW, everything needs to be put on ONE wrench to keep the ratios constant. Leading to the next question, will it work with a 500 pound climber or 2, 250 pound climbers. So if the RW fails as it is not rated for 500 pounds and does not need to be as it is not life support but now you have two climbers at 500 pounds hanging from a rated hitch, rated pulley and rated line at the max WLL but unable to descend.
Again, my apologies for jumping in and trying to understand and not being able to answer anything but create more questions.
 
interesting discussion. I have never tried to descend with a Rope Wrench above another climber on the same line, however it may in fact work because even tho the wrench might not make an S turn on the rope, that does not mean that it would not in fact bind on the rope when torqued and provide significant friction above the hitch.
 
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...it may in fact work because even tho the wrench might not make an S turn on the rope, that does not mean that it would not in fact bind on the rope when torqued and provide significant friction above the hitch.

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Yep, good point Surveyor. Definitely looking forward to hearing what folks discover testing this.
-AJ
 
The HH has to be classified as life support because if it breaks you die. It is connecting link between you and the rope as much as a hitch, carabiner or rope bridge. Like a rope bridge or a carabiner it doesnt singly provide the function of holding you on the rope but it is a link in the life support chain.

The RW however is not life support, if it breaks you live, as long as the hitch holds. My issue with it was always just the construction and the slick pins etc, a silly fear but I imagine popping the slick pin and getting stuck. Probably not a real concern but it was mine none the less.

Neither device will hold you on the rope on its own though and both require a hitch to function. This part of the discussion is moot though as no one contests these facts to my knowledge.
 
I've had a bit of negative feed back about the slic pin. It's funny because I almost love the slic pin more than I do the rw. I just think its the best invention ever. I'm literally obsessed with them and their potential. I see places everyday that could have their problems solved with a little slic pin. I have even dreamed about becoming a slic pin dealer or salesman.
 
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