QUESTION: What's the best hi-load bend to untie?

[SingleJack]

QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

We spent yesterday morning on a 36" DBH, dead, sycamore removal with many, many widow makers. For safety and other reasons, several large branches were pulled down with a tractor. There was plenty of time, so, it was an opportunity to try some different bends as an 'in-the-field' test. We used a hard-lay bull rope looped with a bend, to double it's stength. There were four 'major pulls'. So, four different bends were tried. All held very nicely. However, they all required tools and swearng to untie. The bends were, in order of 'un-tie-ability' ease: Bowline Bend, Butterfly Bend, Zeppelin Bend, Double Sheet Bend. At least there were no ax-knots (lol). Of course, since this was in-the-field work, the loads were not equal.

So, with an eye to 'un-tie-ability', what's your favorite hi-load bend?

 

[Norm_Hall]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[ QUOTE ]
So, with an eye to 'un-tie-ability', what's your favorite hi-load bend?

[/ QUOTE ]

A three loop bowline. Can't be beat.

 

[SingleJack]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, with an eye to 'un-tie-ability', what's your favorite hi-load bend?

[/ QUOTE ]

A three loop bowline. Can't be beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This?

 

[Gord]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

Bowline with a smooth stick in it.

 

[Colin]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

are you pulling with a hook or clevis or the ball of a truck or something else? for a hook i like a double sheet bend ( by far the easiest out of the list) for a clevis and the ball of a truck i like a cow hitch with a slipped better half with a stick or carabiner though it.

 

[SingleJack]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

I think I posted my question poorly. My bad - apologies. The loop I mentioned was the entire length of the rope – not the end – not midline. I was tying (bending) the two ends together to make a loop out of the entire rope.

Let's see if I can do better:

What is the PREFERRED knot to bend two rope ends together so it can be <u>EASILY</u> un-tied?



I do like the "smooth stick" concept, Gord. I've been thinking of adding a short section of EMT with a tether to my rigging kit.

 

[SingleJack]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

[ QUOTE ]
are you pulling with a hook or clevis or the ball of a truck or something else? for a hook i like a double sheet bend ( by far the easiest out of the list) for a clevis and the ball of a truck i like a cow hitch with a slipped better half with a stick or carabiner though it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was using a clevis to attach the rope to a chain &amp; grab-hook on the tractor. The double sheet bend took the longest to untie - needed an awl and channel locks. But, in it's defense it pulled the biggest load of the day.

The stick or carabiner or pipe is definitely going in the rigging kit.

Maybe ... the 'stick-trick' will shift the focus of knot selection from easiest to untie to easiest to tie.

 

[Colin]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

on a hook its much easier to untie; almost to easy.

 

[Blinky]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

I've been using a zeppelin bend lately, never pulled on one with equipment though, just a 5:1. I switched from the double sheet bend after pulling one so tight it was welded and we couldn't get it untied... couldn't even work a spike into it anywhere.

 

[southsoundtree]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[ QUOTE ]
Bowline with a smooth stick in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a variation on this theme, I go for a breakable stick. Easier to break it at the location where it goes through the knot than sliding it through, IMO. Finding something that will not break from being crushed, but easy enough and sizeable enough to break by bending can add in that extra room, easily.

 

[Norm_Hall]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, with an eye to 'un-tie-ability', what's your favorite hi-load bend?

[/ QUOTE ]

A three loop bowline. Can't be beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I then connect the two ropes together with the appropriate sized screw pin shackle. I mostly use the 3/4", but also use the 1".

 

[sohner]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

That looks like my emergency saddle. One I would use if all I had was rope. It pains you for a bit but after while it all goes numb anyhow...

 

[knudeNoggin]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[ QUOTE ]
We spent yesterday morning on a 36" DBH, dead, sycamoreThere was plenty of time, so, it was an opportunity to try some different bends as an 'in-the-field' test.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, here's a big BRAVO!!! for your thinking of doing this!

[ QUOTE ]
We used a hard-lay bull rope looped with a bend, to double it's stength. There were four 'major pulls'. So, four different bends were tried. All held very nicely. However, <u>they all required tools</u> and swearing to untie. The bends were, in order of 'un-tie-ability' ease:
Bowline Bend, [just interlooped eyes, or ... ?]
Butterfly Bend,
Zeppelin Bend,
Double Sheet Bend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I would luv to have photos of the loaded knots.

And --double-wow-- I cannot believe that Rosendahl's
Zeppelin loop was EVEN hard to untie, let alone not
tops of a list of difficult-but-doables. !?!?!?
Can you point to a reference for the knot that you
believe to be this one? It IS possible that you got
SmitHunter's bend or a lookalike. Honestly, I find
it hard to jam this end-2-end knot in the small stuff
I've cranked a bit with a 5:1 pulley for kicks; and
others testify to its looseness as well.

By "Bowline bend", hmmm, do you mean simply Bowlines
connecting/looping each other (eye-in-eye)? There
is also the cleverer construct in which one takes
each end's working end into the opposite's "rabbit
hole" (like two bowlines w/eyes cut off and then
fused into each other). THIS knot can be given
an extra diameter in the rabbit holes by taking
each end back through its own hole (so, "out of
the hole, around the *tree*, back into the hole,
AND THEN over and "out" of the opposite side's hole).

The Carrick bend is one favored by the crab fishers
in their hard-laid ropes pulling up 1,000#+ pots,
when haul lines need to be lengthened.

Ashley's #1408 is much like Rosendahl's bend and
the Butterfly (but symmetric, and so w/o the various
dressings that the B. can take).

Again, thanks for doing this impromptu test!
You got more out of the work than just felling
the tree --something to share. WE gained from
you.

Cheers,
*kN*

 

[SingleJack]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[quote
...
Wow, I would luv to have photos of the loaded knots.

And --double-wow-- I cannot believe that Rosendahl's
Zeppelin loop was EVEN hard to untie, let alone not
tops of a list of difficult-but-doables. !?!?!?
Can you point to a reference for the knot that you
believe to be this one? It IS possible that you got
SmitHunter's bend or a lookalike.
...

[/ QUOTE ]

I, too, found it hard to believe the Zeppelin Bend (ZB) was so hard to untie. You got me worried that I tied it wrong. So, I got up early to see if I could figure out what happened.

I think, while pulling the ZB through the tall grass, it got caught on a rock and 'spilled' into and unstable condition that jammed when loaded. Here are some pictures of a "TEST" of indicates that it could happen and in fact, a ZB spilled in such a manner does jam.

Lessons learned:
1) There is set and there is SET.
2) Take precautions to prevent knots from being altered by passing over obstructions.

 

[moray]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

[ QUOTE ]
...I think, while pulling the ZB through the tall grass, it got caught on a rock and 'spilled' into and unstable condition that jammed when loaded. Here are some pictures...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good work, SJ! I couldn't imagine how the ZB would be hard to untie, but I didn't want to come right out and say you had tied it wrong.

I tried spilling a few ZB's this morning and found it isn't that easy to do. This spilled version, as you discovered, would definitely be hard to untie after a heavy load. I think both the spilled and the normal versions should be perfectly stable, that is, neither would slip and both would be hard to transform into the other.

Here is the normal version:

And the spilled version:

 

[knudeNoggin]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

[ QUOTE ]
...
Good work, SJ! I couldn't imagine how the ZB would be hard to untie, but I didn't want to come right out and say you had tied it wrong.

I tried spilling a few ZB's this morning and found it isn't that easy to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Moray, YOU tied it wrong (mind your "p"s &amp; "q"s --you want "p" &amp; "d");
SJ, you SET it wrong (way too loose!).

A correctly tied Zeppelin, among other interlocked Overhands,
is presented here: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1446.0 .
(Note also the not-so-jammy version of Hunter's bend shown.)

Note that the "P&amp;Q" aspect refers to the relation between load turns
of each mainline --they rotate in the <u>same</u> direction (e.g., both
clockwise). Moray, you have a knot similar in appearance to the
Hunter's Bend (aka "Rigger's Bend", by Phil Smith; ergo, "SmitHunter's").

SJ, the way the ends in your (correctly tied, but for setting) are sooo
bent/distorted (vs. running straight through, perpendicular to the
axis of loading), shows perhaps quite an irony: you set it so loose
in hoping for easy untying, and instead got a jammed knot! You
need to trust the outstanding characteristic of the knot; set it pretty
tight.

*kN*

 

[SingleJack]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to untie?

Thanks, Moray. When I re-tied the ZB for my "comealong tests", it untied quite easily after being loaded. Your right the ZB is very hard to spill but being pulled by a tractor through a rocky field ... not so much. My spilled ZB, as altered by an obstacle was not quite as neat as yours (pic below). The spilled ZB, loaded by a comealong was quite a bit easier to untie than a spilled ZB loaded by a tractor. However, it should be noted, <u>even spilled and jammed under very high load, the ZB did not fail.</u>

I've always felt, a Set knot is safe ... this incident indicates that may not always true. While it was my error to subject the ZB to such harsh treatment, it was virtually un-avoidable due to the hazards of the job at hand. That being said, I'll be working with a additional step to the old adage:

Tie, Dress, &amp; Set ... <u>Watch</u> that the knot is not altered by loading, obstacles, etc.

This has been a productive exercise!

<u>Thanks to all</u> who helped me do the "knot-forensics" (lol) necessary to improve work procedures.

Comealong loaded ZB, spilled and jammed:

 

[SingleJack]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

[ QUOTE ]

...
SJ, the way the ends in your (correctly tied, but for setting) are sooo bent/distorted (vs. running straight through, perpendicular to the axis of loading), shows perhaps quite an irony: you set it so loose in hoping for easy untying, and instead got a jammed knot! You need to trust the outstanding characteristic of the knot; set it pretty tight.

*kN*

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! That's truly insightful! I’ve always believed some of the pundits claiming the ZB to be self setting. Thanks, kN for your advice about setting it tight. I’ll have to confess setting a tiny, tight knot like the ZB in hard-laid rope ain’t a piece-a-cake. But, I will heed your advice and set is tight as I can.

Though, from now on, I’m still gonna Tie, Dress, Set &amp; Watch.

 

[Brion]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

Hi,
Nice work, nice follow-through. And have you tried Ashley's #1452? In my experience, it's harder to upset than a Zeppelin, and easier to tie and draw up.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

 

[moray]

Re: QUESTION: What\'s the best hi-load bend to unti

[ QUOTE ]
...Moray, YOU tied it wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]

Goodness! My bad--I definitely had it wrong. I'll try again:

The normal Zeppelin bend:

A spilled version of the ZB:

Once again, I have to say, it is very hard to transform one of these into the other. Except for the fact that it actually happened to SingleJack, I would have thought it impossible.