Question about figure eight without ears.

TreeBarber

TreeBarber

Location
NW Washington
Any one use a figure eight with out the ears, a deft eight. I have always used a rescue eight because I was always told the ears prevented the device from girth hitching its self. Lately I have been climbing trees to install internet radios, I STR up into the limbs, free limb (using lanyards as back up of course) to get into position for the radio installation. Once completed I rig my rope and rappel down going thru the limbs. The ears on the eight are snagging and catching on the limbs as I go down. I like using an eight as apposed to a ATC or other devices due to twigs, leaves and other small things caught on the rope go right thru. My question is, has anyone had any problems with using a regular eight?
Thanks.
Pat.
 
Yes, due to size and ears; i believe they are less strong too.

Book says that the line will Girth Hitch; but more properly; a Girth would have tension on both legs; and a Cow is maid; as it only has Standing Part tension on 1 leg.

Spiraling is another issue; and can be minimized by keeping Bitters/tail inline; not cocked to side with Standing Part.
 
I've rappelled and taught people to rappel on simple figure eights since 1978. In that time the problems I've seen were a woman's hair getting caught once and the lockup issue you and Spyder mentioned once. Yes they twist ropes but so do friction knots.

To me, figure eights are solid rappelling tools that, just like every other climbing tool, have to be used correctly. If you are heavy, carrying heavy gear or lack much hand strength you should backup the eight with a prusik.
 
About a week ago I got a descending tool, Eddy by Edlerid. It is a super nice tool. It is compact like a Gri Gri. But...it functions like the I'd in the sense that if the handle is pulled too hard or let go the descent/belay is locked. The sweet spot is small enough to not be awkward.

Eddy is my tool of choice for straight raps.

http://tinyurl.com/ywxdrl

The tool is not as inexpensive as other belay/rap devices but the safety functions are something to consider.
 
Here's another one, the SMC Spider or Spyder (I've seen it spelled both ways). It's a little less expensive- $140 MSRP. I haven't got to try it, because they don't appear to be available until some time in October. When they are available, I'm gonna get one.

This is the only pic I could find of it.

1380912342_5236168c7b_o.gif
 
From the published descriptions of the Spider it seems to resemble a Gri Gri not an Eddy or I'd.

I wrote to SMC and asked about how it will function. When they respond I'll add to this thread.
 
I think you're right. What interests me about the Spider is the claim that you have "full control" and "excellent feel" on rope.

I can't help but wonder if we're making a little more out of the panic thing than is justified. We know Grigris have been used by many for a long time, and I have yet to hear of an accident caused by pulling the lever in panic or pulling it tighter and generating a fall. And, contrast the Grigri to the use of an unbacked F8.

BTW, can you install the Eddy on rope without disconnecting it from the biner? That's one thing I don't like about the Grigri. I have heard of them being dropped while trying to install them.

Oops, one more thing. Does the Eddy have a lock off position like an I'D? That's something I really like about the I'D, you can lock it off and it won't be easily 'knocked' loose by a limb, etc. Grigri type devices could be but again I suspect it would lock right back up when it cleared the interference.
 
I've read plenty of posts on rock/gym climbing forums about drops/slips using a GriGri to give me grave concern about it's use as a rap device or a belay in the hands of an inattentive or inexperienced user.

The Eddy has swivel cheeks so it could be dropped. If I was concerned about the fumblies I would attach a small cord tether.

Yes...Eddy will lock if the handle is released or pulled too hard. A simple flip resets it. Eddy sits firmly between GG and I'd combining the best of both.
 
Not quite what I meant. The I'D locks if you release or pull too hard, but in addition to that, if you move the lever in the opposite direction about 180°, it goes into a locked position. I.e. it rotates the cam into the rope and locks there. The rope will not move in or out. The handle has to be rotated CCW about 90° to unlock it. It's nice for work positioning.
 
I agree with Tom. I know of 2 people who had their grigri not lock up on them. In both cases, they had reached the top of their climb and leaned back assuming that the grigri would lock. It didn't. They took a 20 and a 30 ft fall respectively. I have had my grigri slip as much as a foot. It does it when I'm using thinner (10mm) ropes and I lean back on the device easy. It catches better when you load it with a little force. For this reason I always tie a safety knot above my deck point.
 
Roger,

That's what I was getting at too. The Grigri can slip, although I didn't realize it could go into a complete fail mode.

If you lock off the I'D with the lever, it will/can not slip because the cam is 'pre-engaged' and locked in place. At least I've never seen it slip when locked. But to keep things in perspective, I've never had a Grigri slip even a foot, much less 20 or so feet.

Seems like there's a caution/warning in the Grigri instructions about the 'auto-lock' being disabled if the rope runs over the top of the Grigri in a way that causes the Grigri to rotate toward a horizontal position.

Hmmm, as I think about it, I find it amazing that a Grigri could go into a contiuous failure mode for 20 feet or so. I was using my Grigri day before yesterday with Velocity rope and was very impressed with the combo. I actually had to pull pretty hard on the lever to get it to descend, but it was very smooth and very controllable.

Is there any chance these were panic falls where the climber(s) pulled on the handle which released the Grigri and when they sensed the fall they pulled even harder on the handle?
 
The GG internal locking mechanism will not grab the rope in a slow, gentle load. If you move slowly and don't shockload the rope will slip. this is something that I'venot liked about the GG from the beginning.
 
Tom,

I'm not understanding something.

We seem to have instances of climbers falling for 20 - 30 feet due to a Grigri not grabbing the rope. But it takes a "slow, gentle load" to keep the GG from grabbing. Here's what's confusing me: How does one fall as a slow, gentle load? My perception of a fall is anything but slow and gentle.

If a slow, gentle load will defeat the GG, we can only conclude that the fall is slow and gentle. I would think the speed of a fall alone would be enough to load the GG.

What am I not seeing here?
 
Ron,

If you have a GG you can get it to slip quite easily. Just pull the rope gently and it will pay through.

Without knowing all of the accident circumstances we're only going to be able to guess what happened. I've read many threads on rockclimbing.com over the years about inattentive belayers dropping climbers. Some were groundfalls some stopped short of grounding. One common issue that I read is that the belayer doesn't keep a load on the rope and the rope doesn't tail over the rounded lip where it's supposed to.
 
With smaller ropes, especially new, slick ones grigris slip pretty easy. Here it is from the instruction manual: "Light falls or lightweight climbers: multiple friction points on a long run-out will limit the shock-force transmitted to the device. In addition, the weight of a light climber or the load of a sliding fall may not exert sufficient tension on the rope and the locking action of the device may therefore be compromised or delayed. For this reason, always maintain a tight grip on the free end of the rope."
 
I hear ya about the slick small ropes slipping through a Grigri. A couple of thoughts about that. The Grigri is spec'd for 10 & 11 mm rope. I have used the GG with PMI 10mm EzBend, PMI 9mm EzBend, KMIII 5/16" (actually measures 8.5mm), 1/2" ArborPlex, 7/16" Velocity and have indeed seen some slight slippage and some slow grab, i.e. it grabs, slips a bit and then locks. But, I have yet to see a fall condition. That doesn't mean I've throughly tested it, or that a GG won't fail to grab. It just means that I've used a lot of different ropes with it, both in and out of spec on the large and small size and I haven't seen a fall condition.

You can see why it seems to me like there has to be more to this than a properly installed and properly used GG failing to grab and causing a 20 - 30 foot fall.

It almost suggests that anybody that uses a GG can expect it to fail to grab resulting in a free fall condition, because the problem lies in the mechanics of the GG and it's just a matter of time until the climber sets up the right conditions and the GG will fail. If that were true, we should have heard about enough falls to warrant not using a GG as an ascender because it is inherently unsafe.

But, contrary to that, there are many climbers that use the GG as an ascender frequently and haven't had a fall due to the GG failing to grab. Plus, we have already identified no less than three improper uses of a GG that could lead to a failure. These three are not inherent in the device, but in the proper use of the device. The three are, the tail routed over the top of the GG instead of over the lip, a panic response and grabing the handle, and possibly too light of a climber combined with other rope routing factors more commonly associated with belaying than climbing.

As far as the latter goes, I would add that belaying is signicantly different than using the GG as an ascender. When the GG is used as an ascender, it is very near the climber and only one person (the climber) is involved. When it is used as a belay device the GG is far from the climber with lots of rope and possibly obstructions/interference between the climber and the GG and there is a second person (the belayer) involved. It's much easier to see how the rope could be loaded in a way that would prevent the GG from grabbing in belay conditions. But those conditions don't exist when using the GG as an ascender.

How'd we get from "...F8's without ears" to GG? LOL.

I'm not in any way saying a GG won't fail. But I'd like to know for sure that the cause is due to the GG, which would justify discontinued use of a GG, or if it was due to improper use of the GG, which would justify learning to use the GG correctly and safely.

I use a GG for Yoyoing, I'd like to know if it's unsafe.
 
I use a grigri on a daily basis, both for belaying a climbing and as part of my ascension system. I have no trust issues with the device whatsoever. When I use it as a belay device, I keep a hand on the brake rope at all times. When I'm ascending, I tie a stopper knot that will prevent me from hitting the ground. I just like the idea that it's backed up.

Most of the slippage issues come when loading the device, so if you spend most of your time hanging or leaning into the harness, this issue won't come up very often.
 
That's what I'm seeing as well Roger. But when I read about a 20' and 30' fall 'due to a Grigri', it makes me want to know if there is a Grigri problem or an operator problem.

The stopper knot is a good idea. I'm not sure where you tie the stopper knot, but I tie a safety knot right next to the Grigri, IF I feel more security is needed. That way if the Grigri does fail, I won't fall at all.
 
I use a standard 8 and have not had problems in the couple years of use. Now I have never had to do a quick repel with it, knock on wood, so can't say much about that.
 
I think it was a combination of operator error and mechanical failure in both cases. Operator error because neither operator had a hand on the brake rope (which would have stopped them immediately) and mechanical failure because the grigri never pinched the rope.

I tie my first stopper knot about 6-8 ft off the ground, then I might tie another at places where I pass a limb that will be in the path of my fall. I just tie an overhand on a bight for a stopper.
 
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