Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
- Thread starter guymayor
- Start date
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
[ QUOTE ]
"Accumulation of heartwood exposures on pruning wounds can be devastating over time" (page66)
[/ QUOTE ]
WHAT KIND OF PRUNING WOUNDS?
There is a world of difference between a pruning wound that has 10,000 lbs of tree above it, and one that has a 2" lateral to support. Did I mention that a little common sense goes a long way..
I keep my wounds on the main stem to 4" and under whenever possible.. and with the proper explanations to the clients about "just how bad it is to leave large wounds on the main stem: that will inevitably result in a pocket of decay that destabilizes the entire top of the tree", its almost always possible to avoid... I do not know any other arb that gives 100% effort (I put that in for you Stevie) to avoid making cuts over 4" on the main stem.
With reduction pruning on horizontal limbs, I will go 8, 10 12, 14, 16"... whatever it takes to keep the customer happy and not make the cut on the main stem. And make such large cuts with no regard whatsoever to the size of the lateral. I AM happy to cut back to adventitious buds, and let the stub sprout..
Generally when its necessary to make big cuts like that, its only on one or two problematic limbs. As long as its only a couple cuts, I've never had much of a problem with water sprouts. Obviously when the job is to reduce half or all a medium-large tree, the cuts are much smaller and the cut size is species and condition dependent.
I've been doing it this way for a lot of years and have no regrets.. and plenty of evidence to show that this type of reduction pruning greatly reduces the probability of storm damage to near 0% (for you Steve).
One important consideration is that I generally make reduction cuts on horizontal limbs and try to avoid, or minimize, reduction of central leaders, unless decay is present. Leave the leaders in tact and take the sides in.. Its those long heavy horizontal limbs that are most subject to failure in sound trees.
[ QUOTE ]
"Accumulation of heartwood exposures on pruning wounds can be devastating over time" (page66)
[/ QUOTE ]
WHAT KIND OF PRUNING WOUNDS?
There is a world of difference between a pruning wound that has 10,000 lbs of tree above it, and one that has a 2" lateral to support. Did I mention that a little common sense goes a long way..
I keep my wounds on the main stem to 4" and under whenever possible.. and with the proper explanations to the clients about "just how bad it is to leave large wounds on the main stem: that will inevitably result in a pocket of decay that destabilizes the entire top of the tree", its almost always possible to avoid... I do not know any other arb that gives 100% effort (I put that in for you Stevie) to avoid making cuts over 4" on the main stem.
With reduction pruning on horizontal limbs, I will go 8, 10 12, 14, 16"... whatever it takes to keep the customer happy and not make the cut on the main stem. And make such large cuts with no regard whatsoever to the size of the lateral. I AM happy to cut back to adventitious buds, and let the stub sprout..
Generally when its necessary to make big cuts like that, its only on one or two problematic limbs. As long as its only a couple cuts, I've never had much of a problem with water sprouts. Obviously when the job is to reduce half or all a medium-large tree, the cuts are much smaller and the cut size is species and condition dependent.
I've been doing it this way for a lot of years and have no regrets.. and plenty of evidence to show that this type of reduction pruning greatly reduces the probability of storm damage to near 0% (for you Steve).
One important consideration is that I generally make reduction cuts on horizontal limbs and try to avoid, or minimize, reduction of central leaders, unless decay is present. Leave the leaders in tact and take the sides in.. Its those long heavy horizontal limbs that are most subject to failure in sound trees.
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
They need to get out of their ivory towers come home with sawdust in their pockets everyday for a few years, and chase a few storms, get a taste of reality, like Guy has been doing for decades..
THANKS GUY... you're awesome!
They need to get out of their ivory towers come home with sawdust in their pockets everyday for a few years, and chase a few storms, get a taste of reality, like Guy has been doing for decades..
THANKS GUY... you're awesome!
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Accumulation of heartwood exposures on pruning wounds can be devastating over time" (page66)
[/ QUOTE ]
WHAT KIND OF PRUNING WOUNDS?
There is a world of difference between a pruning wound that has 10,000 lbs of tree above it, and one that has a 2" lateral to support. Did I mention that a little common sense goes a long way..
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think a little common sense can go a long way, and Dr.Coder isn't lacking any. If you bother reading through the latter half of that link you will see how the size and number of wounds is significant.
Anyway, condescension makes for a poor rebutal (not referring here to you, Daniel). btw, who is "Stevie"?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Accumulation of heartwood exposures on pruning wounds can be devastating over time" (page66)
[/ QUOTE ]
WHAT KIND OF PRUNING WOUNDS?
There is a world of difference between a pruning wound that has 10,000 lbs of tree above it, and one that has a 2" lateral to support. Did I mention that a little common sense goes a long way..
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think a little common sense can go a long way, and Dr.Coder isn't lacking any. If you bother reading through the latter half of that link you will see how the size and number of wounds is significant.
Anyway, condescension makes for a poor rebutal (not referring here to you, Daniel). btw, who is "Stevie"?
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
[ QUOTE ]
btw, who is "Stevie"?
[/ QUOTE ]
Just another prolific internet Ahole that thinks the world of himself LOL.. (what makes that funny is that I qualify too)
[ QUOTE ]
btw, who is "Stevie"?
[/ QUOTE ]
Just another prolific internet Ahole that thinks the world of himself LOL.. (what makes that funny is that I qualify too)
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah....old myths die hard alrighty.
http://www.glte.org/sites/default/files/Dr._Coder__Arboritecture_Manual.pdf
"The stem - branch confluence selected as the reduction point should always have a lateral branch at least 1/3 the diameter of the stem to which it is connected" (page 47)
"Accumulation of heartwood exposures on pruning wounds can be devastating over time" (page66)
[/ QUOTE ]
I read through a number of pages in the Coder piece on pruning and was WOW'ed throughout... couldn't believe what i was reading and published as late as 2008... THIS INDUSTRY IS STUCK !!! and the piece is more proof of Guy's point that old myths die hard, than any realistic argument in favor of the 1/3 rule for example...
Shigo said "touch trees".. Guy and I do that everyday... our heads are not stuck in the books.. we deal with real trees and real people..
For example.. Mrs Smith wanted more light on her garden. in 2009 she was taking bids to have one large tulip limb removed, probably 18" diameter at the base. There was no talking her out of it.. and there was no lateral 1/3 the diameter of the parent stem to cut back to.. So what is an arborist to do? if he follows the 1/3 rule, he's going to take the entire limb off leaving a 18" wound, low on the main stem of a 90' tulip tree growing next to a garage and well within striking distance of 2 houses. (tulip is an extremely poor compartmentalizer) That's a recipe for disaster... yet is the course most reasonable arborists would take in following the 1/3 rule...
Fortunately I got to hear a lecture given by Guy in 2004 on mitigation pruning after storm damage... and I thought to myself what's the difference between a storm taking the end off this monster limb, and Mrs Smith insisting it be removed for more light on her garden.. That's when it clicked for me..
And fortunately there was a smaller lateral, maybe 1/4-1/5 the diameter of parent stem... did I cut back to that?.... NO!!!!!
I left another 6' of stem, and cut back to a little bump (in 12+" diameter wood) that indicated the potential presence of latent buds (based on Guy's recommendations for storm remediation)... And everybody freaked out.... that was 2009.. 4 years later there is NO SIGN OF DECAY IN THE CUT! and a few small sprouts which took two years to begin developing... The tree kept the bark in that 6' stub alive for two years before it decided to put out new growth... That's cool !
I'll continue to monitor the tree...
Here's the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j36V8dchcqE
its surprising to me that there is so little discussion of this subject at TB... is everyone so uncomfortable with changing the paradigms that they don't even want to talk about it?
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah....old myths die hard alrighty.
http://www.glte.org/sites/default/files/Dr._Coder__Arboritecture_Manual.pdf
"The stem - branch confluence selected as the reduction point should always have a lateral branch at least 1/3 the diameter of the stem to which it is connected" (page 47)
"Accumulation of heartwood exposures on pruning wounds can be devastating over time" (page66)
[/ QUOTE ]
I read through a number of pages in the Coder piece on pruning and was WOW'ed throughout... couldn't believe what i was reading and published as late as 2008... THIS INDUSTRY IS STUCK !!! and the piece is more proof of Guy's point that old myths die hard, than any realistic argument in favor of the 1/3 rule for example...
Shigo said "touch trees".. Guy and I do that everyday... our heads are not stuck in the books.. we deal with real trees and real people..
For example.. Mrs Smith wanted more light on her garden. in 2009 she was taking bids to have one large tulip limb removed, probably 18" diameter at the base. There was no talking her out of it.. and there was no lateral 1/3 the diameter of the parent stem to cut back to.. So what is an arborist to do? if he follows the 1/3 rule, he's going to take the entire limb off leaving a 18" wound, low on the main stem of a 90' tulip tree growing next to a garage and well within striking distance of 2 houses. (tulip is an extremely poor compartmentalizer) That's a recipe for disaster... yet is the course most reasonable arborists would take in following the 1/3 rule...
Fortunately I got to hear a lecture given by Guy in 2004 on mitigation pruning after storm damage... and I thought to myself what's the difference between a storm taking the end off this monster limb, and Mrs Smith insisting it be removed for more light on her garden.. That's when it clicked for me..
And fortunately there was a smaller lateral, maybe 1/4-1/5 the diameter of parent stem... did I cut back to that?.... NO!!!!!
I left another 6' of stem, and cut back to a little bump (in 12+" diameter wood) that indicated the potential presence of latent buds (based on Guy's recommendations for storm remediation)... And everybody freaked out.... that was 2009.. 4 years later there is NO SIGN OF DECAY IN THE CUT! and a few small sprouts which took two years to begin developing... The tree kept the bark in that 6' stub alive for two years before it decided to put out new growth... That's cool !
I'll continue to monitor the tree...
Here's the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j36V8dchcqE
its surprising to me that there is so little discussion of this subject at TB... is everyone so uncomfortable with changing the paradigms that they don't even want to talk about it?
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
Pel thanks for reading Arboritecture so closely. I totally agree about heartwood exposure and brutalization, but am sad to see Dr. C repeat the 1/3 rule, but I agreee with him,,,it is a "should", and there are exceptions when there are no laterals that large. Overall Dr. C. gets it right:
In trees, everywhere a leaf, bud, or twig emerge is a node -- a place where tissues have been
redirected to connect and support tissue growth. In between nodes are straight twig, branch and stem
segments -- called internodes. Figure 20. On any small branch there will be lateral branches, lateral
buds, new sprouts, and leaves. Each of these organs arise from a node and are separated by internodes.
Nodes are areas in trees where many ray cells and transport tissues are concentrated to support
and supply tissues growing in new directions. Nodes are centers for strong defensive reactions, closing off
more distant tissues if they are not productive. Internodes have limited defensive capabilities, especially
along the longitudinal axis. Damaged internodes usually are sealed off at the nearest stem side node.
Pel thanks for reading Arboritecture so closely. I totally agree about heartwood exposure and brutalization, but am sad to see Dr. C repeat the 1/3 rule, but I agreee with him,,,it is a "should", and there are exceptions when there are no laterals that large. Overall Dr. C. gets it right:
In trees, everywhere a leaf, bud, or twig emerge is a node -- a place where tissues have been
redirected to connect and support tissue growth. In between nodes are straight twig, branch and stem
segments -- called internodes. Figure 20. On any small branch there will be lateral branches, lateral
buds, new sprouts, and leaves. Each of these organs arise from a node and are separated by internodes.
Nodes are areas in trees where many ray cells and transport tissues are concentrated to support
and supply tissues growing in new directions. Nodes are centers for strong defensive reactions, closing off
more distant tissues if they are not productive. Internodes have limited defensive capabilities, especially
along the longitudinal axis. Damaged internodes usually are sealed off at the nearest stem side node.
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
I think the 1/3 rule is a good guideline to follow as previously stated. Of course this plays into the on going argument that 1/3 may not work in all situations. Now using the "year" argument as in the article may once again clarify the issue. Problem is the exceptions.
Recently we have covered a number of good subjects. Some included the simple truths:
Exposure of heartwood can be bad.
Reduction of aging trees can be good.
Now the problems:
Length of growing season.
Type of tree.
Goals to accomplish.
Targets.
Budget
Reduction overall is subjective with a base guideline to follow. For instance, what I can do in Florida is vastly different than what I could do in Idaho, etc.
So how do we go about refining this reduction clause. I have yet to start a personal and documented study on just reduction techniques besides the veteran projects that I am conduction. But this leads me to another topic that this has led me to publish in my next post. This is Advanced Structural Pruning outside the scope of the A300.
I think the 1/3 rule is a good guideline to follow as previously stated. Of course this plays into the on going argument that 1/3 may not work in all situations. Now using the "year" argument as in the article may once again clarify the issue. Problem is the exceptions.
Recently we have covered a number of good subjects. Some included the simple truths:
Exposure of heartwood can be bad.
Reduction of aging trees can be good.
Now the problems:
Length of growing season.
Type of tree.
Goals to accomplish.
Targets.
Budget
Reduction overall is subjective with a base guideline to follow. For instance, what I can do in Florida is vastly different than what I could do in Idaho, etc.
So how do we go about refining this reduction clause. I have yet to start a personal and documented study on just reduction techniques besides the veteran projects that I am conduction. But this leads me to another topic that this has led me to publish in my next post. This is Advanced Structural Pruning outside the scope of the A300.
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
Thanks for contributing to the discussion Frog.. I like what you have to say and show, cause it gets me thinking...
Thanks for contributing to the discussion Frog.. I like what you have to say and show, cause it gets me thinking...
Re: Pruning Paradigms: Eternal Truth?
What do we think is worse? Reducing to a lateral less than one third or a reduction cut that is too big. We know that the tree doesn't compartmentalize those cuts the same as a removal cut. We also have that issue of no bpz. Spp that I work with I am pushing it at 8" for most, 6" for some. Depending on the spp (something we all agree is the biggest consideration?) I will gladly reduce back to a less than ideal lateral. I don't make too big of reduction cuts, though. If a lot of big reductions are involved, time to consider your options.
What do we think is worse? Reducing to a lateral less than one third or a reduction cut that is too big. We know that the tree doesn't compartmentalize those cuts the same as a removal cut. We also have that issue of no bpz. Spp that I work with I am pushing it at 8" for most, 6" for some. Depending on the spp (something we all agree is the biggest consideration?) I will gladly reduce back to a less than ideal lateral. I don't make too big of reduction cuts, though. If a lot of big reductions are involved, time to consider your options.
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