Pruning a 350 year old tree

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So what I saw was an old hollow linden fully exposed in an open field, I would say the tree was extremely prone to failure. Not having laid eyes on this tree in person I'm only assuming that the failure point would be the butress or lower trunk. By putting a bunch of cables in the tree the canopy would have no way of dampening the forces exerted upon it and put more stress on the assumed weak area. Severe reduction over total loss of a veteran tree? Reduction seems like a great option to me. Cheers Mat!

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That's about the size of it. Last year I looked inside the tree and there was light showing between the buttresses on all side, as if the tree was stood on tip toes. The guy managing the tree felt the collapse was imminent.

For several years the park managers have been trying to prevent access beneath the tree during the festival with fencing but every year efforts failed due to achieve this successfully because of pressures for space from the festival organisers. The tree is in the center of the site in front of the main stage. Tree managers have been using qtra to assess the level of risk and a decision was made to do the works.

I'm not trying to convince you here Daniel here, i can see thats not very likely, just trying to paint a picture of the context of the job.

Thats the problem when you make an assumption on a job without understanding all the issues behind the job. I already told you the tip pruning was not an option because this has already been carried out and repeated as decay progresses. That management started nearly 20 years ago. Cabling would have been a waste if time at best at worst would have increase the likely hood of it failing. Do nothing and the tree falls and dies, do what we did and we get to retain an important habitat and who knows, the tree may still live another couple hundred years. As long as it doesn't fall over a lime can live for much longer than 300 years. England's oldest trees are very often these feild pollards.
 
American arbos really need to learn more from how veteran trees are maintained in other countries. There is a much different context to consider when the history is counted in many centuries.

Take a look at how historical buildings are preserved and protected in the US v. the rest of the world. Tear it down and start over is the US norm it seems.

Learn what the term 'veteran tree' means in English English instead of American English and there will be huge insights.
 
I am curious about the decay. I understand the buttresses are 'see-through', however are they solid? Is there internal decay and if so to what extent? I am asking for my own knowledge base regarding Linden in New England. Thanks!
 
I can understand Daniels point on this and it is definitely an "American" view. Our society is so litigous that if a twig would fall and muss someones hair, a law suit would be filed. I have to side with Tom on this. We need to develop a better sense of "Tree Time". An additional 50 years to this tree is really a short amount of time compared to the length of time this tree has been alive.
 
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So what I saw was an old hollow linden fully exposed in an open field, I would say the tree was extremely prone to failure. Not having laid eyes on this tree in person I'm only assuming that the failure point would be the butress or lower trunk. By putting a bunch of cables in the tree the canopy would have no way of dampening the forces exerted upon it and put more stress on the assumed weak area. Severe reduction over total loss of a veteran tree? Reduction seems like a great option to me. Cheers Mat!

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Agreed! Very nicely done Mat!
 
Holy crap!

I finally watched it.

I thought Daniel must be dating some hippy woman again, but I just watched it and WOW.

Huge cuts. Now you are going to make the entire tree hollow.

If the base of the trunk is hollow and weak, why not strengthen the base?

see attachment. Telephone Poles and a fabricated ring and large diameter threaded rods through the trunk.

then at the same time, do a crown reduction, maybe 3 inch maximum diameter cuts.
 

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Hey x. Agreed they are large cuts and I've no doubt they will decay to leave an open topped, hollow cavity. No doubt the tree will still survive being a lime. Continuing as a hollow but living veteran tree is preferable to falling over and loosing 90% of its roots and almost certainly dieing.

It would have been difficult to achieve a meaningful tip reduction seeing as the tree has been reduced in stages for many previous years. I can and do do sensitive reductions and i think I'm pretty good at it, but we were working to a different spec on this job. I think lime is one of the few species we could have hit this hard, if it were and oak or beech for example there would have been a different approach.

Your suggestion to support the tree is a good example of the different approach taken in the us to the uk. We do something's differently here. I also suspect that there would not have been any significant difference in costing to support the tree, supporting may have been a more expensive option.

If the tree dies in the near future because of this work, I will happily eat my own hard hat and send Daniel a bunch of flowers in way of an apology. Don't hold your breath though
 
Mat,

Thank you for sharing it with us.

Very interesting.

Yes, the supports would have been very expensive.

I'm sure you are a very good arborist.

Please share more things with us in the future.

Good to see work from around the world.

take care,
 
Is there any science to support the need for removal of that much weight in order to stabilize a tree with X amount of decay.

Generally I prefer removing "the straw that breaks the camel's back". Don't see the need to remove the top 1/2 of a beauty like that. Just think about it.. if the tree could support itself with that much weight... removing a much smaller %, at the most leveraged place (branch tips upper canopy) should do the just fine, barring hurricane winds or ice storms..
 
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American arbos really need to learn more from how veteran trees are maintained in other countries.
Learn what the term 'veteran tree' means in English English instead of American English and there will be huge insights.

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Seems like semantics Tom..

Whatever you want to call it, how does that change the basic formula for hazard mitigation?

Please explain?

Thank you
 
Daniel,

Take some time and do a bit of research on the subject.

The OP told about how the trunk is compromised. Having the estate manager involved with 20 years of experience with the tree sure seems more valuable than making any sort of decision based on what can be gathered from this thread.

Sure...semantics...learn what the words mean.

On special occasions I've done things like this but not even close to as radical.

Heck...if this becomes a staged removal so be it.

By now the music fest must be done and over. A bit of shade was probably welcome to anyone attending. And, a much reduced risk of having the tree fail.

Here, I did the first part of your homework for you Daniel, follow Jack Sparrows rule, you can read this book [not just skim] for free. I bought it when I was in England many years ago, the concept is one that needs to be considered.

Veteran tree mgmt. handbook
 
Great info Tom,
I got a quick start on chapter 4.. vet tree mgmt.. seems like there is no science to support the recommendations.. just a "try it like this cause it works for us approach"... which is fine w me... Hard to imagine any other way of doing it without a few hundred years of inter-generational experimenting.

I would particularly be interested in science that sheds some light on just how much weight needs to be removed to significantly reduce the forces that could cause failure. This is a very real issue, with severe consequences for both life and property, that we face regularly..

Just think of all the weight removed in that video... was it really needed to make the tree 100% safe?.. I personally don't see much benefit in keeping a mutilated 350 year old tree living in a field in a park.. (horribly mutilated). Better to leave the trees basic structure in tact and let it take its chances, if there are not significant immovable targets... But the idea that that type of pruning was needed to keep the people that attend a festival in the park once a year safe is ridiculous... I just don't know how else to make the point. I apologize if that seems rude.
 
http://www.ecosync.com/tdworld/Branch%20Failure%20Investigation.pdf

Great study by John Goodfellow up in Washington. The whole thing is worth a read, but check out page 56. John presented some newer research at biomechanics week in 2010, and I believe the number he used was 10%. As in, reduction of 10% of the mass of the branch, taken from the end, all but eliminates the chance of branch failure in the near term.

This was looking at Doug fir branches, and in the study above its all angiosperms. Both looked at smaller branches on younger trees, but I think it's still quite relevant.

Another interesting point he makes is that in healthy trees, branches do NOT fail at 'defects'. In fact many 'defective' branches have higher safety factors than branches without 'defects'.

Far as veteran tree management, Daniel I think you have a lot to learn. I'm not saying you're wrong and someone else is right, just that there are different ways to go about things. What I saw in that job was that they protected the habitat and preserved the tree organism, if not the branch structure. I'll take that over a full removal any day.
 
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Just think of all the weight removed in that video... was it really needed to make the tree 100% safe?..

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In all reality he didn't remove ENOUGH material to make the tree 100% safe. Only way to make a tree 100% safe is to remove 100% of the tree. There are acts of god that make it impossible to say that a tree is 100% safe. Because of this we can only lessen the risk. The arborist who wrote the job specs had to go on site and determine the best course of action. In fact he had been on site multiple times and knew the tree very well I'm assuming. I'd never give an estimate for tree work based off of video because I can't see the whole picture through a video.
 
Not quite sure what to say to you because your either not open to hearing another opinion or your trying to provoke a reaction from me by insinuating I'm either a tree mutilator or too lazy to do a tip reduction. rather not give you that satisfaction.

I put this video on here because the job was somewhat unusual and I though it might initiate some interesting discussion. I've tried to address your points but you don't seem to open to hearing anything that contradicts the assumptions you've already made from a 3 minute video. I would be interested to learn you achedemic qualifications which qualify your opinion seeing as your so quick to challenge an alternate view point.
 
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Another interesting point he makes is that in healthy trees, branches do NOT fail at 'defects'. In fact many 'defective' branches have higher safety factors than branches without 'defects'.

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Disagree with this. I've seen numerous "healthy" trees with limbs that failed at defects. American elm comes to mind.

Haven't read the article and you obviously know your trees but that one statement got to me. Maybe he only means a specific species of tree. I know "rams horn" is harder and stronger than normal wood...you can tell when cutting through it. But that's a heck of a blanket statement.
 
Well hold on there now, that was not my statement, it was John's.

If you ask me though, I would have to agree but with some additional qualifications. I would argue that in longer lived trees that are healthy (as in producing lots of reaction wood) and do not have significant cankered areas, failure usually occurs away from defects. As in, that old oak tree with the well-compartmentalized hollow in the trunk will probably fail on the clear portion, not the hollow.

I would not agree with any blanket statement intended to cover all scenarios. I think that John said this to get people's attention, which it did. He actually repeated it for emphasis, and so no one would think he misspoke.
 
I'm not fussing at you Will, and I know they weren't your words. I just can't help but remember the countless times I've seen branches fail at a defect. I really should read the link and I will soon. And I will examine the area of failure on future limb breaks with zest, take some pics, and possibly we can discuss it further in a thread focused on it. Do you consider canker to be a defect?
Will
 

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