Primary rigging point

[treehumper]

Treehumper I see what you're saying there. On a total side note I will talk about pulling on a tree now. I you were scalping the tree and leaving that 20' top, so you're tied off 80% of the way up, how much more force (if any) would it take to pull over, compared to if you blew that 20' top out and tied off running the rope from behind the top cut over top to be sure you have 100% of the way up?

Would it be easier because it's at the very top or just because the load is 20% smaller? Again if at all, I often blow out tops if it's windy so there is less effect, but what are your thoughts on that?

This is a matter of inertia in the crown. Since your not moving the rope's attachment point then it's a function of leverage against the tree's bending capability and fiber strength. Leaving the rope at the same distance from the hinge point and reducing the crown to the point of attachment will make it easier for two reasons, less weight and less inertia. If you move the attachment point up then you can find the point where the added leverage balances out against the reduced top giving you the same net force required. It's all relative. Here's where having the room to fell it vs. taking the top out first comes into play, not to mention the wind factor, lean and effective balance of the crown. Remembering of course, the wood fiber strength and elasticity.

If it were easy then anyone could do it!

 

[KevinS]

Wow humper that was detailed I'm defiantly going to read that at least twice more before I say or ask anything. Thanks for spending your time to put that out there, appreciated

 

[sherwood7]

Very well said tree humper. Also any amount of canopy u leave will create drag which means more force required to pull it over. The angle of pull also makes a huge difference. The further away from the base of the tree u get the more lateral force u exert on the stem as opposed to downward force. Physics, gotta love it

 

[treehumper]

Learn to see the work in force vectors.

 

[Hulk]

I was taught to remove the top (if possible) from your main rigging point before dismantling the rest of the tree. Others have told me that it is better to leave it for last.... Thoughts, opinions, facts?

Depends on tree ,conifers usually bottom up big spreading victim of circumstance, I will leave brush in the way sometimes just to block the gutters or pull back everything ,there's only right and wrong ,wrong only envolves breaking
Things.

 

[Riggs]

I thought the title of the post was primary rigging point ? That hasn't been answered . Re read what has been posted here , are you kidding me ? I never read so much bs in my life ( that's a lie ) . all types off trees , all types of situations and these are responses for primary rigging . unbelievable . keep it up , stay safe . Make sure your calculator is on your saddle at all times . breath , calculate , breathe , then , cut the fkng limb and move on ! Oh my GOD

 

[Steve Connally]

I'm with Riggs on this one. First of all in a broad canopy tree taking the top out is a PITA. Lots of hang ups and broken limbs that aren't tied off. Not worth the effort IMHO. Dropping the top comfortably to me depends on the notch you put in it. I always make mine upside down from a felling notch. Excuse my lack of technical jargon. Cant think of it. Reverse Humbolt or something. Secondly, having the rite guy on the porty. The only time I really worry is in nasty trees or really tall skinny pines. Then if possible I'll drop the top into another rigging point in another tree or have them let it run almost to the ground. Generally, I have a pretty easy ride doing it. I've got to kind of agree here. Just take the average tree down already. This conversation does have its place for those sketchy trees though. Not meaning to offend or condescend!

 

[Daniel]

in hardwoods the top goes after the tree is brushed out.. conifers too come to think of it... when possible position the block where it will be to take the top out....... this saves you the time of moving the block one additional time.. it all ads up... I've never considered the mass dampening effect of the top or the limb wood much of a factor though... Maybe it is and I have a lot to learn... vectors, stretch in the rigging line and skillful rope running, much more important..

 

[wyoclimber]

It very much depends. I was removing a spruce once in the typical manner, bottom to top. As I got towards the top, it started to get windy, and living in Wyoming windy means 30 mph with gusts to 50. The tree had codominant tops and one of them ripped out 5-6 feet above me. It could have been a freak thing, but I can't help but think that the little Pom Pom that was left had something to do with it, i.e. The tree no longer had the dampening it was used to in the wind. I still don't always take the tops down first, but if it's a breezy day, I usually do.

 

[treehumper]

For the most part we all do this intuitively, No calculators strapped to our belts or, for the older guys, slide rules. All gut feel and get it done yesterday attitude. That's called being the unconscious competent. What's next is the conscious competent, the guy who knows what's going on and why. I have the luxury of all day to think about this stuff without having to worry about how quickly I'm getting it done. Once I'm back in the tree, I'll be working the same as most, doing it without a whole lot of thought about the numbers, just the feel and the experience.

But, its good to know whats going on behind it. Though for some it may be too much to wrap their heads around...

 

[Steve Connally]

It would seem that the strength is not relative to if its a pole or a tree with a top. The strength is the strength is the strength. That depends on the wood, the angles, and your gear. IMHO a failure is not likely to occur at your rigging point unless its a tree that is so sketchy that it literally crumbles apart during the removal process. Your strength will depend as stated above on the point of leverage, bend, or pull. I'm not sure you can actually answer your question but I'll leave it to guys like tree humper who are way more savvy with the engineering theories. What i'm saying is if you drop 500lbs into a block with the top on or off, the strength remains constant. If the rope is gonna break, it will do so regardless. If the tree is gonna fail it will do so regardless. It depends on so many factors. Is the porty on the base of the removal tree or on another tree and if so how far away? Straight line loads will be constant. Adding angles and bending factors by where you have your rigging system oriented will be the biggest factor in the strength of the tree being able to take the stress. Isn't it the basic principal of a lever? I know that's highly simplified and there are an infinite number of factors involved that cannot be addressed by a general question.