PETZL Sequoia Rated?
- Thread starter easyphloem
- Start date
- Location
- Asheville, NC
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
Re: PETZL Sequoia Rated? *DELETED*
The "instructions" for my TreeMotion say the the bridge is only rated at 15kN. Not the hardware on either side that the bridge is tied to (which is 15kN), but the actual bridge.
The "instructions" for my TreeMotion say the the bridge is only rated at 15kN. Not the hardware on either side that the bridge is tied to (which is 15kN), but the actual bridge.
Why are they being sold if they do not meet our standards? I think it to be pretty frustrating that you look through the baileys, sherrill, or wesspur catalog and they all list them. Then you have to research them yourself to figure out if there strong enough for tree work. If their listed in the catalog they should meet out standards period.
So should i buy one, i really so like the saddle, and it does feel very comfy!!! Do i honestly think it will fail on me? No way, if i take care of it.
So should i buy one, i really so like the saddle, and it does feel very comfy!!! Do i honestly think it will fail on me? No way, if i take care of it.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
[ QUOTE ]
They can byte my bawlsack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooowwww! ...don't say stuff like that... jeeezus!
It's great that lawyers can make hay over .5KN and all, but the Non-Bivyer has a point. It's time to reconcile what is clearly a semantic discrepancy.
If you make a requirement of someone, the requirement should be reasonable and consistent. Expecting a climber to either buy a harness just for competition on not compete is stupid. So is ANSI stupid... or are they gonna show they have enough flexibility to adapt to change? Unreasonable rules and laws make rulebreakers and lawbreakers out of good sensible people.
They can byte my bawlsack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooowwww! ...don't say stuff like that... jeeezus!
It's great that lawyers can make hay over .5KN and all, but the Non-Bivyer has a point. It's time to reconcile what is clearly a semantic discrepancy.
If you make a requirement of someone, the requirement should be reasonable and consistent. Expecting a climber to either buy a harness just for competition on not compete is stupid. So is ANSI stupid... or are they gonna show they have enough flexibility to adapt to change? Unreasonable rules and laws make rulebreakers and lawbreakers out of good sensible people.
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
[ QUOTE ]
If you make a requirement of someone, the requirement should be reasonable and consistent. Expecting a climber to either buy a harness just for competition on not compete is stupid. So is ANSI stupid... or are they gonna show they have enough flexibility to adapt to change? Unreasonable rules and laws make rulebreakers and lawbreakers out of good sensible people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you have to but a different harness to compete? The comps allow non-ANSI compliant harnesses. TreeMotion for example. The TCCs need to work on consistency in their rules and the application thereof.
If you make a requirement of someone, the requirement should be reasonable and consistent. Expecting a climber to either buy a harness just for competition on not compete is stupid. So is ANSI stupid... or are they gonna show they have enough flexibility to adapt to change? Unreasonable rules and laws make rulebreakers and lawbreakers out of good sensible people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you have to but a different harness to compete? The comps allow non-ANSI compliant harnesses. TreeMotion for example. The TCCs need to work on consistency in their rules and the application thereof.
- Location
- healdsburg, CA
[ QUOTE ]
So is ANSI stupid... or are they gonna show they have enough flexibility to adapt to change?
[/ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong, but I thought that Tom Dunlop was or is, a member of the ANSI committee....
So is ANSI stupid... or are they gonna show they have enough flexibility to adapt to change?
[/ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong, but I thought that Tom Dunlop was or is, a member of the ANSI committee....
easyphloem
Branched out member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
My Petzl Sequoia was passed at gear inspection at the Southern Chapter TCC (my brother used it for speed events).
Even though it only has a CE rating tag. The head judge had no problem with allowing it.
At this point, you might be at the mercy of your head judge or head technical advisor at any given TCC as to whether or not your hodge-podge of new-fangled climbing gear has the right tag on it for them to OK it.
SZ
Even though it only has a CE rating tag. The head judge had no problem with allowing it.
At this point, you might be at the mercy of your head judge or head technical advisor at any given TCC as to whether or not your hodge-podge of new-fangled climbing gear has the right tag on it for them to OK it.
SZ
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
If im not mistaken at every comp Ive been to thus far(maybe 12)Petzl navajo and v bods where allowed for the speed events.I own both and neither has a ansi tag just CE.Just wondering why all the fuss now.I would bet they have never been refused at a comp!
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Yup, I am a voting member of the Z133 Committee. There are lots of changes happening.
The harness standard is really complex and i don't understand it well enough to make much of a comment either.
There is an OSHA reg that says that body support gear needs to be 5k#. this is not as easy to establish a proper work-around procedure like ANSI standards. OSHA regs are set...
We have to remember that the comps are not work and are work related to some degree. The TCC is a sporting event. this gives the organizers discretion about how to apply regs.
Today we talked a bit about the TxTCC which is this weekend. The most important issue is to have consistency and agreement on the given day.
The harness standard is really complex and i don't understand it well enough to make much of a comment either.
There is an OSHA reg that says that body support gear needs to be 5k#. this is not as easy to establish a proper work-around procedure like ANSI standards. OSHA regs are set...
We have to remember that the comps are not work and are work related to some degree. The TCC is a sporting event. this gives the organizers discretion about how to apply regs.
Today we talked a bit about the TxTCC which is this weekend. The most important issue is to have consistency and agreement on the given day.
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
So if comps are so inviting of non-ANSI gear, why is there a Butterfly II harness? Why wasn't the original good enough?
And with so much discretion at their fingertips, why won't comp organizers pass my 22kN biner while they'll pass a harness with a 15kN bridge?
And with so much discretion at their fingertips, why won't comp organizers pass my 22kN biner while they'll pass a harness with a 15kN bridge?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I guess I stand corrected about the comps but I've heard stories about 22kN gear being rejected at gear check because it wasn't 22.5kN.
I wasn't slamming ANSI, I think standards are great... but bureaucracies tend to do stupid stuff... I'd rather believe ANSI is flexible and responsive. In other words, the question WASN'T rhetorical. Will ANSI respond to this kind of discrepancy?
I wasn't slamming ANSI, I think standards are great... but bureaucracies tend to do stupid stuff... I'd rather believe ANSI is flexible and responsive. In other words, the question WASN'T rhetorical. Will ANSI respond to this kind of discrepancy?
- Location
- Boulder Colorado
[ QUOTE ]
Yup, I am a voting member of the Z133 Committee. There are lots of changes happening.
The harness standard is really complex and i don't understand it well enough to make much of a comment either.
There is an OSHA reg that says that body support gear needs to be 5k#. this is not as easy to establish a proper work-around procedure like ANSI standards. OSHA regs are set...
We have to remember that the comps are not work and are work related to some degree. The TCC is a sporting event. this gives the organizers discretion about how to apply regs.
Today we talked a bit about the TxTCC which is this weekend. The most important issue is to have consistency and agreement on the given day.
[/ QUOTE ]
The whole OSHA/ANSI requirement thing can be very confusing even to professionals. As a Petzl Work & Rescue Sales Rep I still can't keep it all straight. A discussion on this subject should be valuable to help all of us understand it better. So here goes...
To my understanding the Tree Care industry is regulated by OSHA. OSHA refers to ANSI Standards in its regulations. I think one of the things that complicates this whole issue is that ANSI Z359.1 is a fall arrest standard originally created by the construction industry. When OSHA began looking at Tree Care this was the only harness standard in existence. So they chose to hold the Tree Care Industry to this standard even though Tree Care harnesses are used for Work Positioning, not Fall Arrest. So as long as you are using your harness for Work Positioning and not Fall Arrest, OSHA does not require you to wear an ANSI certified harness. (Someone who has a better understanding of this, please correct me if I am wrong.)
If ISA chooses to require ANSI Z359.1 certification to CYA regarding liability at comps, that is their choice. Right or wrong, their intent is good even though the tools they are using do not actually apply.
The Fire Service looks to NFPA for guidance. NFPA refers to ANSI standards as well. The difference is that NFPA only makes "recommendations". Fire Departments are not compelled to follow these recommendations, particularly if they can justify their choices. A common mis-conception throughout the Fire Service is that NFPA makes requirements. They do not.
Clearly, it is ok for an arborist to use a Petzl Sequoia harness for work even though it is not ANSI certified. But ISA will not allow its use in a sanctioned competition because it is not certified?
The best thing for the Tree Care Industry would be standards that apply to Tree Care. Additionally, international standards for Tree Care should be considered as U.S. and CE standards are often close but do not match further complicating the issue for all of us.
Any ANSI experts out there care to comment?
Yup, I am a voting member of the Z133 Committee. There are lots of changes happening.
The harness standard is really complex and i don't understand it well enough to make much of a comment either.
There is an OSHA reg that says that body support gear needs to be 5k#. this is not as easy to establish a proper work-around procedure like ANSI standards. OSHA regs are set...
We have to remember that the comps are not work and are work related to some degree. The TCC is a sporting event. this gives the organizers discretion about how to apply regs.
Today we talked a bit about the TxTCC which is this weekend. The most important issue is to have consistency and agreement on the given day.
[/ QUOTE ]
The whole OSHA/ANSI requirement thing can be very confusing even to professionals. As a Petzl Work & Rescue Sales Rep I still can't keep it all straight. A discussion on this subject should be valuable to help all of us understand it better. So here goes...
To my understanding the Tree Care industry is regulated by OSHA. OSHA refers to ANSI Standards in its regulations. I think one of the things that complicates this whole issue is that ANSI Z359.1 is a fall arrest standard originally created by the construction industry. When OSHA began looking at Tree Care this was the only harness standard in existence. So they chose to hold the Tree Care Industry to this standard even though Tree Care harnesses are used for Work Positioning, not Fall Arrest. So as long as you are using your harness for Work Positioning and not Fall Arrest, OSHA does not require you to wear an ANSI certified harness. (Someone who has a better understanding of this, please correct me if I am wrong.)
If ISA chooses to require ANSI Z359.1 certification to CYA regarding liability at comps, that is their choice. Right or wrong, their intent is good even though the tools they are using do not actually apply.
The Fire Service looks to NFPA for guidance. NFPA refers to ANSI standards as well. The difference is that NFPA only makes "recommendations". Fire Departments are not compelled to follow these recommendations, particularly if they can justify their choices. A common mis-conception throughout the Fire Service is that NFPA makes requirements. They do not.
Clearly, it is ok for an arborist to use a Petzl Sequoia harness for work even though it is not ANSI certified. But ISA will not allow its use in a sanctioned competition because it is not certified?
The best thing for the Tree Care Industry would be standards that apply to Tree Care. Additionally, international standards for Tree Care should be considered as U.S. and CE standards are often close but do not match further complicating the issue for all of us.
Any ANSI experts out there care to comment?
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I stand corrected about the comps but I've heard stories about 22kN gear being rejected at gear check because it wasn't 22.5kN.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Chip, you're totally right. 22kN biners will get rejected while 22.5kN is fine. But a climber can get a harness with a 15kN bridge passed no problem.
I guess I stand corrected about the comps but I've heard stories about 22kN gear being rejected at gear check because it wasn't 22.5kN.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Chip, you're totally right. 22kN biners will get rejected while 22.5kN is fine. But a climber can get a harness with a 15kN bridge passed no problem.
- Location
- New England (NH)
Our intern is sponsored by Petzl in world class rock climbing comps. He has an in with the R&D team and we are preparing a message to voice our concerns about the rating and lack there of. I would love to send them a list of comments from fellow buzzers (laidies included- Bear Scovil won 1 at the NEC TCC). I am concerned with the stitching patterns strength.
- Location
- Hawaii
[ QUOTE ]
Yup, I am a voting member of the Z133 Committee.
The harness standard is really complex and i don't understand it well enough to make much of a comment either.
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems practicing arborists should be more involved in writting standards and the mystery behind where and HOW the committees are getting their numbers (e.g. 22.5kn) should be made clear to those in the industry.
If even you (on the committee) can't understand the harness standard because it's too complex, how are practicing arbs to know whether this is a reasonable standard or not??
[ QUOTE ]
I think one of the things that complicates this whole issue is that ANSI Z359.1 is a fall arrest standard originally created by the construction industry.
[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, why are TCC's requiring ANSI tags on equipment that is not being used in accordance with the very standards for which it was written?
Are there standards in the works that apply separately to work positioning and fall arrest? This would seem to make sense
jp
Yup, I am a voting member of the Z133 Committee.
The harness standard is really complex and i don't understand it well enough to make much of a comment either.
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems practicing arborists should be more involved in writting standards and the mystery behind where and HOW the committees are getting their numbers (e.g. 22.5kn) should be made clear to those in the industry.
If even you (on the committee) can't understand the harness standard because it's too complex, how are practicing arbs to know whether this is a reasonable standard or not??
[ QUOTE ]
I think one of the things that complicates this whole issue is that ANSI Z359.1 is a fall arrest standard originally created by the construction industry.
[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, why are TCC's requiring ANSI tags on equipment that is not being used in accordance with the very standards for which it was written?
Are there standards in the works that apply separately to work positioning and fall arrest? This would seem to make sense
jp
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