Pantin Life Support?

treebing

treebing

Been here much more than a while
Location
Detroit, Mi.
Somebody in a position of decision making power told me that since the Rope Wrench sees over 50% of the climbers weight during the course of a climb, it needs to be rated for life support. Following this logic, my guess is that the Pantin, which regularly sees 100% of my weight during the course of a climb also be rated for life support. Anyone else ever blow out the straps on a pantin mid ascent? pretty scary, as is a wooden rope wrench blowing out in your face. Both have happened to me more than once. Luckily I have never viewed either as Primary life support and had in place a sturdy life supporting hitch. Is there a difference in these comparisons? or should they be subject to the same judgement as they are both non life support tools that regularly see significant percentages of the climbers weight.
 
Kevin,

The idea that the Rope Wrench HAS to be rated as life support is ridiculous. Considering its shape, and essential function it could not provide life support in any way shape or form.

Are they simply asking that you rate it to a MBS of 5000lbs? Would that make it life support? Or are they asking for it to somehow suspend the climber in the absence of a hitch?

Personally I always felt that if it had been rated at 5000lbs mbs you would have encountered less problems. Maybe if you 'certify' as a life support component in a climbing system that will suffice.

A Beeline eye&eye is 'life support' but wrapped on the rope in an overhand knot it wont provide any 'support' life or otherwise. It is the hitch, that is life support and even on its own without a rope it serves no life support function.

Classifying the RW as a component in a system, used in conjunction with a rope, hitch, and tether may be your end around. 1st step: 5000lb mbs.


Good luck buddy!
 
I think maybe the term "life support" is misused here. Perhaps we should say "fall protection". I have seen a pantin save a guy from falling when he messed up his SRT setup badly and ended up hanging upside down by the pantin - lucky.

Isn't the pantin just a different configuration of the Basic/Croll/Ascencion? Just that where it is used in the system makes it non fall protection, eh?

As for the wrench, does it not simply bend the rope providing friction? Much the same as a Figure 8 does? Will a figure 8 do anything on it's own, without the climber's brake hand? (or in conjunction with a hitch/autoblock). - NO

WILL the wrench support your weight by itself with a good brake hand on the tail? DOES it function just like an '8'? If so then it SHOULD be load rated as a fall protection/belay device. Maybe then it would be accepted.

Perhaps it's not the wrench at all but simply the CONCEPT of SRWP that has people frowning. I dunno, it's gotta be better than free climbing or un-secured footlocking right?
 
I've always liked the idea of having every thing in my climbing system to be rated, or on my harness. Even if it's a non locking carabiner. I feel that if it's on my saddle I should have the option to use it in a life support situation, eg, opposite and apposed for the non locking biner analogy. However I do climb with a pantin and I'm experimenting with using a zk-1 and single rope.
I like the analogy of a rope wrench to a figure 8. Figure 8's are rated, no? What would it hurt to rate a wrench? Would it be acceptable to use a unrated non locking biner in the f8 configuration? I'm sure it would be safe to do so (if you can depend on your hitch, as you should), but why would you chose a wire gate revolver over the tri lock? However if the wrench needed to be rated so would the tether, otherwise it would be a moot point.
 
is the use of the slick pin any cause for it not being life support? With an 8 it is a closed system which requires the operators manipulation of rope, 8, and krab to remove the rope, where as with a slick pin, if the spring which engages the tooth becomes gunked/doesn't function then the pin could possibly slide out if the system is slacked. Although this should never happen because you should inspect your equip- but just playing devils advocate.
 
There was a movement some time ago to have all climbing hitches 'rated' as life support.

Since this would be impossible...sort of...using cordage, it opened the door to the possibility that the only 'climbing hitch' that could be 'rated' would be a mechanical hitch. At that time there were few mechanical hitches being manufactured. There is a jump from manufacturing and 'rating'.

IN soooo many other applications of risk and safety the 'company line' is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. If cordage isn't 'rated' to be used in arborculture then it can't/shouldn't be used. In the past there have been many cross-over pieces of cordage and hardware that weren't 'arbo-rated' but have worked just fine.

It's really a shame that so much of this negative attention about SRT is going only to the Rope Wrench. I'd feel even more the rogue if the Uni was as much of a lightning rod.

I have to wonder if Kevin's '...body in a position of decision making power...' has done a thorough risk-assessment of the way they live their life. Diet, exercise, rest, peaceful thoughts, wear a seat-belt, heck, wear a helmet for driving. Where does risk enter into a person's life?
 
Kevin was only unfortunate enough to go first. The guy charging with flag usually got mowed down if you read the pictures in the history books.

:(
 
Somewhat off the topic .... in a way, any toothed ascender (such as the Patin) is only considered a half point of connection to the line. Meaning it needs another ascender or life support object on the line with it. So with that said I can see why some people view the WR as having a discrepancy when it comes to life support.... although I still like it!

Oh, I am not saying the Patin is life support..... wouldnt want to see all my gear blow out and only have the Patin left!!!!
 
What is the diff between a muenter hitch/fig 8 and a ropewrench? other than the efficiency due to the placement.
They both do the same thing the rw just does it better with its orientation to the overall system.
 
When I look at my climbing kit, one of the last pieces that I would consider life support would be my Pantin. In the case of the WR if everything else failed but it, at least i would still be attached to my rope and would have a controlled, but somewhat wild decent to the ground.

However, im sure we can all attest to the fact that getting the Pantin to pop off the rope is very easy if you don't have a carabiner installed to keep it attached to the rope; in fact I often times can use a kicking motion to intentionally get it to detach from the rope intentionally.

With all that said, I agree it often times takes very close to 100% of my body weight, but I sure as hell don't trust my life to it without some form of a back up!
 
A Pantin is clearly no PPE and Petzl tells it on its Homepage as well.
And it is not even half a connection point to the rope (RAT's would call it) as it hat no appropriate attachment possibilities to a harness.
OK, main reason it is not certified for it...

The sad part about the RW certifying is that a Fig.8 is NO PPE as well, at least in Europe!
There is still no EN-Norm for those, although they work on one as far as I know.

Is there a ANSI Standard for Fig.8's? What does it say?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Fairfield,

Where does your point about half point of connection come from?

What rule/reg says that there has to be a backup?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a reg in SPRAT and I am sure the same with IRATA as well. The ability for a toothed cam to tear into the rope calls for a second piece to catch as well lowering the damage effects. Like I had said a little off topic due to it being a diffrent industry's reg, but they work single line as well and have been for many years..... could be a very good reason behind the reg.

Question? although it beats having nothing, why would we state a Patin as life support when it is a piece of gear on the lowest part of the body, and will not keep the climber from hanging upside down/ not designed with primary life support role in mind?? This will confuse newer climbers coming in to think this is an ok practice wouldnt you think?
 
That's my point with the rw. If it were labeled as life support, some jackass might try to use fit as life support. Which would not be a good idea.
 
This is silly, if they are going to apply this rule to the RW they will have to apply it to everything. How about foot locking? the only thing that sees 100% of a footlockers weight are hands and feet, are they going to require people to be able to grip and lock 5000lbs before they can climb?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else ever blow out the straps on a pantin mid ascent? pretty scary, as is a wooden rope wrench blowing out in your face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had the pantin strap pull out. It definitely sucked. No wooden wrench though...
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I'll give everyone who's into comps and stuff a lot of credit for being so patient. It seems like there's a ton of red tape and it only gets worse as time goes on.

It all makes someone like me completely uninterested in having anything to do with comps and the bs. There's more courtroom/lawyer type arguing over use of a certain word for a certain certification than there is actual constructively embracing new methods and gear.
 
I've seen F8's without ratings on them...nothing but a manufacturer's label.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else ever blow out the straps on a pantin mid ascent? pretty scary, as is a wooden rope wrench blowing out in your face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had the pantin strap pull out. It definitely sucked. No wooden wrench though...
smile.gif


I'll give everyone who's into comps and stuff a lot of credit for being so patient. It seems like there's a ton of red tape and it only gets worse as time goes on.

It all makes someone like me completely uninterested in having anything to do with comps and the bs. There's more courtroom/lawyer type arguing over use of a certain word for a certain certification than there is actual constructively embracing new methods and gear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that the introduction of revolutionary gear and techniques will hit a wall of some sort, but the comps are still fun.

Give me some an old Double D saddle, a Buckstrap, and a hank of Arborplex and I'll still climb in a comp any day. To me, it's more about a chance to be with friends and meet new ones.

I actually think you'd really enjoy a day at a comp, Adam.
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