Pantin Life Support?

Fairfield, do you mix up having 2 ropes (= redundancy) and having 2 ascenders on one rope? I dont think so, but it could be read like it. ;)

One toothed Ascender being a half connection might be misleading (terminology) as well. More precise it means: a loaded toothed ascender IS a full connection to the rope, an unloaded ascender IS NOT a connection (so an ascender could be seen as a half connection generally, see above...).

So f.e. in a sit and stand or ropewalker system one ascender backs the other one up while it is pushed upwards.
 
Bonner as to your point, both the ZK -1 and zk2 withstand well over 5000, the zk1 was even sold non midline attachable. I felt like writing this on the wrench would give license to use the wrench in an in intended way. Likewise there is no rating written on a pantin although it surely is a sturdy piece of metal.
 
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I actually think you'd really enjoy a day at a comp, Adam.
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I'd like to make one this year just to see what it's like.

I want to see people whipping around on a wrench and hh though!
 
The problem I see with comparing the RW to a F8 is that with a proper belay the F8 can safely be used as the only point of attachment. This is not the case with the RW. In our industry the F8 is required to be backed up, but is commonly used as the only attachment point in recreational abseiling. I'm kind of rambling here, it just doesn't seem like a fair comparison.
 
Treebing, my though is rate it to 5k+ and make the users guild showing exaclty how it is to be used. If someone goes outside of that use then its their fault, not the manufacture. I hate seeing people get hurt but you are going to pull your hair out trying to get people to listen. I agree with what your line of thought.

Fairfield, be careful with comparing what we do to SPRAT, I know I dont want to be dragging a second rope around with me, like rope access/rescue. Making comparisons like that, and making waves will bring people to looking around our industry. And the changes wont be to the positive.
 
Na, have no intention of making tree climbing like industrial. I think there are certain aspects of SRT though that climbers should be made aware of. Hate to see an accident happen and it come back on the climber for not being fully aware of what a manufacture will fall back on to say regarding it.

As for do I use a two line system while I SRT, sometimes I do (it is dependent on what I am doing). Even industrial climbing has it's limits to when they will use a two line system. Granted in tree use it is way more safe 99% of the time to use just a single line. You may be surprised that there is becoming a number of climbers in the tree world that are using a two line system and with no issues at all. Like anything though it is what the climber feels most safe with.
 
I made an industrial foot ascender the other day, with the op points in mind, about the straps etc.

I took it out on trial last week, and found much better than a pantin, its got more reach, sits above your foot, can be used with spikes, and the straps are bomb proof.

I'm thinking of making them for the market.
 
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I actually think you'd really enjoy a day at a comp, Adam.
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I'd like to make one this year just to see what it's like.

I want to see people whipping around on a wrench and hh though!

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Comps are cool. It's sick to watch those guys footlock.
 
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Somebody in a position of decision making power told me that since the Rope Wrench sees over 50% of the climbers weight during the course of a climb, it needs to be rated for life support.

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Kevin, how can you possible rate it? It does not supply support, it supply's friction and function FOR the hitch that supply's support. It can't support 50 pounds, let alone 5,000#.
Is the branch that your wrench replicates rated for life support?
If your friction hitch fails when your climbing line is over a branch, you fall.
If your hitch fails when you are using your wrench you fall.
The branch cuts the friction on the hitch in half or more.
Your wrench cuts the friction on the hitch in half or more.
Your Rope Wrench does not see over 50% of the climbers weight, it does not support weight, it only provides friction, again, you have tested it, it cannot "support" ANY weight. (In your testing it is easy to think that the numbers represented weight supported, but it really was just a measurement of friction given in pounds.)
I don't know much about all of this but I don't understand why you are being asked how well something will support a load when that is not what it does.
Maybe you can have an engineer explain to them the difference in friction, weight and force, all of which can be measured in pounds.
There must be a bigger picture here.
 
I think it is all just trying to figure out the language. What does life support mean? I really get why this is so tricky whenever you try to quantify everything. I think its a good discussion regardless of who is right. We do need standards.
 
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Give me an old Double D saddle, a Buckstrap, and a hank of Arborplex and I'll still climb in a comp any day.

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Ahh, the challenge has been laid out! I'll hold you to it for the NETCC this year! Or maybe just a friendly workplace old school challenge for a small wager!
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speaking of life support.......is it just me or does the Zig Zag not have a rating stamped on it?
 
This was pointed out to me by another professional.....pretty damn interesting...
 
Life support, as long as you have one reliable life support, why do all the others need to be so highly rated?

I use a lightweight prusik loop rated at 1500lbs, 5mm cord, to help while ascending or other.

It's used in conjuntion with 10mm op.

If you footlock a rope, what are your ankles rated at?
 
With the croll (and dont quote this on me cause I am not 100% sure), I think this because it comes down to it only being the half point connection again. Or needing another piece of kit to back it up. I am going to to ask Petzl this tonight.
 
yep...its only half the load....unless...the top ascender comes off the line at which point it will see ALL the load.....Isn't that the general idea of a backup?

Interesting that this type of non rated ascender backed up by a non rated chest ascender is fully recognized as being a "safe" system ?!?!?
 
For Euro-stuff:

These things are rated (15Kn) but because they cut the rope at way lower loads (4-6kN) the ratings are irrelevant.
Also ratings sometimes do not have to be found on the device when the EN Norm does not say so, ratings can then be found in the specific the EN Norms f.e.
 
I can understand how and why ratings are made for various forms of equipment but I'm confused about others. Caribiners, pulleys, ropes and such are pretty straight forward, pull on it in different directions until it breaks. What about so many other things that interact with other components to function? How do they come up with almost 9000 pounds of force on the HHiker when it depends on a hitch cord. Connecting the dog bone and biner by opposite ends and breaking it apart seems like a worthless number if that is how it is done. . If an e2e prusik cord is rated, does that mean it has the same rating wrapped as a friction hitch? Pulling a Rope Wrench apart would be a completely worthless number, wouldn't it? It just does not work that way. Again I don't see all that is involved but it appears difficult for the climbing regulations to keep pace with the fast change in technology and how it should be applied.
I would like to know more how tests are regulated and performed.
 
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