I was thinking the same thing after getting my mini this weekend at Richards.perhaps another new offing from climbing innovations is in the near future.
Optimizing a foot ascender
- Thread starter samsquatch
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John@TreeXP
Branched out member
- Location
- Bainbridge Island
Having the stand alone Saka mini, aparantely provides a climber the choice of using it with or without the locking clip knee strap. I guess Richard could market and sell it without the knee strap and just call it an ankle-ascender or something, but it's also nice to include the knee accessory too. Using it without climbing boots is ideal for rec-climbers.
John@TreeXP
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- Bainbridge Island
It works great! Now I wonder if it would also be efficient to merge both bungees into a single shorter bungee cord that passes through the rope bridge's ring or swivel, and has enough torque to tend the two ascenders simultaneously. Without any excess tension to either bungee cord, except in a passive hanging position when both knees are typically bending anyway, the leg's climbing motion should be in greater sync and more fluid with a single bungee cord, because when one side releases tension, the other side recaptures it.
John, it would work better to have the bungee pass through a pulley, so that the stretch isn't restricted by the small, sharp bend radius of a ring or swivel. You would then have a condensed version of the Doubled Bungee Ropewalker System.
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John@TreeXP
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- Bainbridge Island
If that's the case, the entire SBR (Single Bungee Ropewalker) setup can be sold together or separately. It's certainly worthy of being bundled and marketed as such, and separately for replacing worn components.
Sorry, I left out an important suffix, which I corrected in the above post. The system has one bungee cord that is Doubled, not double bungee cords.
It does seem like a good system, with all the moving parts below your harness, and out of the way. I was recently making a similar system, but had two bungee cords, doubled through a twin sheave pulley, and was using microscenders for a toothless grab. I only had to figure out the correct length for the bungees when Kevin introduced the retractable reels.
It does seem like a good system, with all the moving parts below your harness, and out of the way. I was recently making a similar system, but had two bungee cords, doubled through a twin sheave pulley, and was using microscenders for a toothless grab. I only had to figure out the correct length for the bungees when Kevin introduced the retractable reels.
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samsquatch
Participating member
- Location
- SE MN
I think we're onto something here, I'd like to give the double SAKA mini a shot too.
Another thought, since we're talking about double bungees, etc.
Can't we drop the bungees, tie the tops of the two ascenders together with a cord (could it be a static cord, or maybe a little stretch?) and stick that thru a DMM revolver connected to our bridge harness? Thought being - instead of a bungee tending the ascender you're currently advancing, it uses your weight already on the other ascender. I'm going to lay this out tonight to see if I can make sense of it.
SAM
Another thought, since we're talking about double bungees, etc.
Can't we drop the bungees, tie the tops of the two ascenders together with a cord (could it be a static cord, or maybe a little stretch?) and stick that thru a DMM revolver connected to our bridge harness? Thought being - instead of a bungee tending the ascender you're currently advancing, it uses your weight already on the other ascender. I'm going to lay this out tonight to see if I can make sense of it.
SAM
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Burrapeg
Been here a while
- Location
- Puget Sound
Wouldn't that be a problem if you wanted to put both feet down at once, like when you get where you are going and want to limb walk or move around? Or when you are on the ground before you are on the rope? The bungees let you walk around normally as well as ascend. With a static cord you would need to unhook any time you were not ascending.
samsquatch
Participating member
- Location
- SE MN
Yes I suppose. Although I don't walk around with my bungees hooked up; I disconnect as soon as I'm done ascending.
Another thought with my idea: with the two ascenders attached to the "same" anchor point of the DMM revolver, it forces them to tend in exactly the same direction. And as long as this is as close to your climbing hitch as possible (such as the undercut on my Uni) this should fair lead very well? I think
Jehinten
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Evansville
Here is a thread that I started that uses what you are talking about, advancing your knee ascender without a bungee. it does work, although the idea was not as original as I had hoped for. maybe it will help you brainstorm? http://treebuzz.com/forum/threads/new-possibly-knee-ascender.37556/#post-555222
in addition to using a footloop on each foot for rec climbers, I think it has a use with anyone wearing spikes as well. If you do not have a powerscender, then the easy on/off of a foot loop on each side would be better than trying to wear a foot ascender and spurs at the same time.
ARLO
Branched out member
This is interesting. You guys have kind of gone full circle back to a design that is very much like the old "Double bungie system" that was developed by cavers back in the old days of SRT (see the illustration on P. 173 in "On Rope"). I used to use the double bungie system but always disliked it because the bungies were always getting in the way when I was climbing through dense limbs in conifers and because the bungie from the foot ascender would occasionally get snagged in the knee ascender (this was especially a problem with novice climbers). It was just generally a pain in the butt and that was why I eventually started climbing on what I called a "single bungie system", much like the one used by George Baranek. When the new systems like the Haas and SAKA came along I thought they were a huge improvement and I have been using the SAKA or a homemade version of the SAKA ever since. So, I have my doubts about a return to a double bungie kind of system, but maybe if you keep tinkering with it and come up with a better mousetrap I can be convinced otherwise? Keep up the innovation!
John@TreeXP
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- Bainbridge Island
I'm planning to give this a shot using a Haas, although the Saka is fine too. I'll run the Haas's bungee through my rope bridge's swivel and down to the foot-loop'd ascender I just ordered from ClimbingInnovations. Adding a pulley may further optimize this setup, as Brocky suggested, and notwithstanding the snag factor, it seems like a worthy ropewalking setup.
The alternative is using a generic foot ascender like the CT foot ascender, which may or may not fit comfortably on running type shoes, but self tends without the bungee. The real test will be which is both more comfortable and more efficient. Finding the proper stride length and the sweet spot where the rope runs easily through the system smoothly, should only take a few strides to dial into.
The alternative is using a generic foot ascender like the CT foot ascender, which may or may not fit comfortably on running type shoes, but self tends without the bungee. The real test will be which is both more comfortable and more efficient. Finding the proper stride length and the sweet spot where the rope runs easily through the system smoothly, should only take a few strides to dial into.
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samsquatch
Participating member
- Location
- SE MN
Cool, I was hoping someone had thought of this. In fact, when I watched my first demo of a rope walker from a distance, it never occurred to me they were separate bungees, I just assumed it was a cord attached to each going thru a redirect. This video sums it up. But why have a chest harness & pulley there.. just use a DMM revolver under your climbing hitch.
The longer bungee was needed in the past because of the limitations of the bungee cord that was available at the time.
The rope walker systems were developed many years ago by cavers, who might typically ascend several hundred feet at a time and needed the chest roller to take some of the work off of the arms for climbing that many feet. Before the roller, the pulley was going on a chest harness up on one of the shoulders to get the necessary length of bungee.
Your idea of using a Revolver below the hitch would definitely make it less snaggable.
The rope walker systems were developed many years ago by cavers, who might typically ascend several hundred feet at a time and needed the chest roller to take some of the work off of the arms for climbing that many feet. Before the roller, the pulley was going on a chest harness up on one of the shoulders to get the necessary length of bungee.
Your idea of using a Revolver below the hitch would definitely make it less snaggable.
samsquatch
Participating member
- Location
- SE MN
Ah, yes I see. So a chest ascender with a roller or micro pulley around the climbing line would allow you to relax your arms completely. Very nice.
So in summary,
Like you said, that doubles as a decent spot to clip bungees to get the stretch length needed. But if quality bungee or bungee doubled over like the HAAS were used, half the height is needed to anchor to. Or if cordage was used instead of bungees, maybe we could avoid all the bungee madness - while giving up the ability to walk around with the ascenders attached.
SAM
Burrapeg
Been here a while
- Location
- Puget Sound
The chest harness is mainly to keep you completely upright as you ascend. It is especially useful if you are sort of thick above the waist and top heavy like a lot of us older guys. Also, with a chest harness, you don't need to hang on with your hands as much and can climb almost hands free. It is really an energy saver. You could still attach bungees to your saddle or below the hitch instead of the chest harness.
ARLO
Branched out member
If you are just doing short ascents, you can avoid the "bungie madness" and just use a short tether to pull the knee ascender up the rope. You just hold the tether in one hand and pull the ascender up the rope as you go hand-over-hand up the rope. But so far nobody has been able to beat the bungie for long ascents where you want your hands free and where you don't want to waste energy. And the chest roller makes a huge difference in the amount of energy you spend going up the rope. Plus, if you are climbing with one of the hybrid systems (e.g., rope wrench, rope runner, hitch-hiker) you can use the chest roller to tend (push) the device up the rope.
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
I hear what you're saying but I want to comment about your "full circle" and "double" remarks. It might look like we've come back to the beginning but it's the improvements in the bungee, at least in my case, that makes all the difference. Unlike cavers, as tree climbers we are often needing to take uneven strides. Assisting with limbs and branches. So the super stretch of this bungee allows more of a DRT configuration. Where as the cavers doubled moving bungee you refer to, could work with lousy recoil or bungee.
In fact, bungee is not even required in that rope walker. Try this, take a piece of cordage and terminate the ends with a loop on each foot. Hold the middle of the cordage in the center of your chest where a pulley would go. Now walk up some stairs one at a time or two at a time. Notice that with nice even steps, the pulley never moves. But skip a step like you were on a limb for a moment and see what happens.
So what makes a 2XSAKAmini different is that it is a DRT or 2SRT bungee not a doubled moving bungee and the super stretch of the bungee and adjustability of stride allows better movement for uneven steps.
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ARLO
Branched out member
I have not had a chance to try the SAKA mini, but in terms of the bungie itself I don't doubt that it is better than the old bungies that people have been using. That alone would be a really nice improvement. And the compactness of the system is definitely a big plus. But I climbed trees for several years with double bungies and I just never liked having both feet hooked to bungies when I was moving through dense limbs. And like I said in the earlier response, it was not unusual for the bungie from the lower ascender to get snagged in the knee ascender. Maybe that would be less of a problem with two separate bungies? I guess time will tell. And if I hear that climbers with the 2XSAKA mini are setting new speed records I will definitely be trying it out. Are you going to be revealing the source of the new improved bungie cord so that those of us who own SAKA's can replace the old bungies as they wear out?
