One Handing a Top Handle Chain Saw? Yes or No
- Thread starter RopeShield
- Start date
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Brakes on chainsaws are activated by inertia. If forces are sufficient (as in a kickback situation) the brake will operate without a hand coming into contact with the brake handle. That of course is if the saw is properly maintained and adjusted.
Humper is perfectly correct, my bad. So whether there are two hands or one hand on the saw where forces are sufficient ( and the dude is prepared for kickback having his or her body out of the kickbck arc for lack of a better term ), the brake should engage whether one hand or two is holding the saw. Correct? I should have bowed out gracefully when I had the chance ( da#n you inertia ) now we are getting technical whereby I am just a simple scruffy climber.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
FA I agree with you 100% on positioning. I'm guilty of using one hand when under production pressures.As described by Swingdude it's with consideration. Got to get back to 2 hands all the time.
As for the demonstration clause, I couldn't find it in my 200t manual. I have found that in the OSHA regs and it firmly places the onus and liability on the employer for their workers not following the regs.
The manual does state in boldface type the top handle saw is specifically designed for use in the tree and should only be used in the tree.
As for the demonstration clause, I couldn't find it in my 200t manual. I have found that in the OSHA regs and it firmly places the onus and liability on the employer for their workers not following the regs.
The manual does state in boldface type the top handle saw is specifically designed for use in the tree and should only be used in the tree.
Not sure if it is in print yet, I thought it was. I pulled this from the 2011 revision doc I had for public comment. The highlighted section is the 2006 version, the 2011 version followed (it was strike through on what I have.)
<font color="blue"> 6.3.6 When operating a chain saw, the arborist or other worker shall hold the saw firmly with
both hands, keeping the thumb and fingers wrapped around the handle. </font> A chain saw shall
be operated with the left hand and thumb gripped firmly around the forward handle and
the right hand and thumb gripped firmly around the rear handle, unless it is not
practicable and the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by operating the
chain saw that way in that particular situation.
Just to add another log to the fire, lets add...
<font color="blue"> 6.3.4 When starting a chain saw, the operator shall hold the saw firmly in place on the ground
or otherwise support the saw a manner that minimizes movement of the saw when pulling
the starter handle. The chain saw shall be started with the chain brake engaged, on saws
so equipped. </font> Drop-starting a chain saw is prohibited. A chain saw shall be started with
the chain brake engaged and the operator holding the saw firmly in a manner that
minimizes movement of the saw when pulling the starter handle.
Got starter rope?
Not that standards mean much unless you f up.
An employer would have to be an idiot to allow one handed use OR to attempt to demonstrate that one handed use is safer. Why? Because the jury that will award the settlement will NEVER see that it should be ok in "that way in that particular situation".
I didn't want the exception in there in any way shape or form. The manufactures of the equipment are all over it. I had heard they wanted a sensor on the handle that made is so it shut down if your hands weren't there.
Those that Zorro a chain saw, have at it. You aren't working for me, so do as you wish, justify it as needed. Hopefully it never goes poorly for you.
<font color="blue"> 6.3.6 When operating a chain saw, the arborist or other worker shall hold the saw firmly with
both hands, keeping the thumb and fingers wrapped around the handle. </font> A chain saw shall
be operated with the left hand and thumb gripped firmly around the forward handle and
the right hand and thumb gripped firmly around the rear handle, unless it is not
practicable and the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by operating the
chain saw that way in that particular situation.
Just to add another log to the fire, lets add...
<font color="blue"> 6.3.4 When starting a chain saw, the operator shall hold the saw firmly in place on the ground
or otherwise support the saw a manner that minimizes movement of the saw when pulling
the starter handle. The chain saw shall be started with the chain brake engaged, on saws
so equipped. </font> Drop-starting a chain saw is prohibited. A chain saw shall be started with
the chain brake engaged and the operator holding the saw firmly in a manner that
minimizes movement of the saw when pulling the starter handle.
Got starter rope?
Not that standards mean much unless you f up.
An employer would have to be an idiot to allow one handed use OR to attempt to demonstrate that one handed use is safer. Why? Because the jury that will award the settlement will NEVER see that it should be ok in "that way in that particular situation".
I didn't want the exception in there in any way shape or form. The manufactures of the equipment are all over it. I had heard they wanted a sensor on the handle that made is so it shut down if your hands weren't there.
Those that Zorro a chain saw, have at it. You aren't working for me, so do as you wish, justify it as needed. Hopefully it never goes poorly for you.
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
Not that it's my first choice of saw (mostly due to the very clumsy handling/operating of the chain brake), but the Echo CS-271T is one of the best when it boils down to two hands handling.
IMHO all top handle saws should have a sloping side handle.
Tanaka tcs-3301s
Tanaka TCS-3301PFS/Hitachi CS33ET
IMHO all top handle saws should have a sloping side handle.
Tanaka tcs-3301s
Although I sometimes still do it, I believe with proper work positioning and rigging tactics, 99.9% of one handing can be eliminated. As I have become more experianced I started to realize that almost everytime I one handed I could see a way to work position myself or deploy the use of rigging to allow a safe two handed cut. Does it take longer? Yes. Should production be forced on you over safety? No. But it will happen anyway.
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
[ QUOTE ]
Haha, ...,cast the first stone.
In Holland the use of tophandle saws is restricted to (in the) tree work. The German (No Dutch manual with the machine at that time) Stihl MS 201 manual is probably about the 'same' as the Canadian/French one. There is a clear statement that you have to use an arborist saw (no mentioning of the words "top handle" here) with both hands.
The following is my (not googles) translation from German into English
[ QUOTE ]
Only use the arborist saw one handed when:
-two handed use is not possible
-it's necessary to secure the work position with one hand
-the chainsaw is handled with a firm grip
-all body parts are clear from the outer work/rotating zone of the chainsaw.
When using the chainsaw one handed:
-never hold the branch you are cutting
-never work with the tip of the chain bar
-never try to hold falling branches
[/ QUOTE ]
Some of these points, in particular the first two, mentioned are a bit mmmm, how shall I put it nicely. Strange!
Wolter
[/ QUOTE ]
The above is in the manuals for Canada, Great Britain(happy days to you! btw) and France.
201t USA manual has nothing remotely similar.
Anybody know why?
Thanks Wolter and all
Haha, ...,cast the first stone.
In Holland the use of tophandle saws is restricted to (in the) tree work. The German (No Dutch manual with the machine at that time) Stihl MS 201 manual is probably about the 'same' as the Canadian/French one. There is a clear statement that you have to use an arborist saw (no mentioning of the words "top handle" here) with both hands.
The following is my (not googles) translation from German into English
[ QUOTE ]
Only use the arborist saw one handed when:
-two handed use is not possible
-it's necessary to secure the work position with one hand
-the chainsaw is handled with a firm grip
-all body parts are clear from the outer work/rotating zone of the chainsaw.
When using the chainsaw one handed:
-never hold the branch you are cutting
-never work with the tip of the chain bar
-never try to hold falling branches
[/ QUOTE ]
Some of these points, in particular the first two, mentioned are a bit mmmm, how shall I put it nicely. Strange!
Wolter
[/ QUOTE ]
The above is in the manuals for Canada, Great Britain(happy days to you! btw) and France.
201t USA manual has nothing remotely similar.
Anybody know why?
Thanks Wolter and all
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario, Canada
When it comes down to it, using the saw one handed or not is a personal choice. The operating manual supplied becomes a legal document and manufactures of chain saws have spent a lot money on legal opinions to make sure that they can't be held liable.
In Ontario and in any of the other provinces that I have worked in, we are bound to follow our Occupational Health & Safety Act and Regulations. In my current capacity, it's my Bible to keep my out of litigation and to keep my job.
As stated in the Ontario OH&SA, Section 112 (2): A worker shall hold a chain saw firmly when starting it and firmly in both hands when using it. O. Regs 213/91.s.112
(2).
It's written for the logging industry and makes no exemption for working aloft in the arboriculture industry.
Like I said, it's a personal choice, one you make to break the law or not. Definitly times when it's easier to get the job accomplished and arguably safer.
Saying that and knowing what the law thinks I know that if I use the saw one handed and I get hurt, I've got no one to blame but myself. I'm also opening myself up for potential fines from the labour inspector.
If I allow workers under my direction to one hand the saw, I am liable for greater fines as a supervisor. If someone gets hurt one handing the saw and I have condoned the practice, myself, the utility that I work for along with the contractor are all liable. The fines increase substantially the further up the food chain and would likely result in my termination.
Obviously in this regard, my official position is simple, two hands at all times.
In Ontario and in any of the other provinces that I have worked in, we are bound to follow our Occupational Health & Safety Act and Regulations. In my current capacity, it's my Bible to keep my out of litigation and to keep my job.
As stated in the Ontario OH&SA, Section 112 (2): A worker shall hold a chain saw firmly when starting it and firmly in both hands when using it. O. Regs 213/91.s.112
(2).
It's written for the logging industry and makes no exemption for working aloft in the arboriculture industry.
Like I said, it's a personal choice, one you make to break the law or not. Definitly times when it's easier to get the job accomplished and arguably safer.
Saying that and knowing what the law thinks I know that if I use the saw one handed and I get hurt, I've got no one to blame but myself. I'm also opening myself up for potential fines from the labour inspector.
If I allow workers under my direction to one hand the saw, I am liable for greater fines as a supervisor. If someone gets hurt one handing the saw and I have condoned the practice, myself, the utility that I work for along with the contractor are all liable. The fines increase substantially the further up the food chain and would likely result in my termination.
Obviously in this regard, my official position is simple, two hands at all times.
I had a good long Skype with a fellow buzzer who has become my good friend and whom I have the utmost respect for, about this topic last night. I am open minded and can see both sides of the debate and understand all the pros and cons of both sides. That being said I am of the view that when running a company and leading by example the two hand always rule is a must and should be strictly adhered to in order to protect the safety of all workers both in the tree and on the ground and it sets a good practice precedence . What doesn't happen in a year happens in a day. Who needs the hassle of liability. It might seem I am sitting on the fence but I am being open minded and teachable and I feel that empowering for my growth. Who said old dogs can't learn new tricks.
- Location
- watertown, ct
I remember a few years back I came across a dead maple tree that was so brittle there was no hope of roping anything from over the house and garage. I had no choice but to cut and chuck. I used webbing slings girth hitched around each piece so my hand was not close to the bar. I would LOVE for someone to show me a different way for me to do that. I try very hard not to one hand when climbing and always make sure my body parts are out of the way. One handing is sometime a necessary skill
Just thinking out loud here. If there are regulations against one handing what is obviously a two handed tool, then there must be a reason. My best guess is that there have been accidents. These accidents have most certainly resulted in costs. If the manufacturers have stated that two hands are to be used and they have engineered the saw with that in mind then they have incured costs. If the governmental agencies have wriitten into legislation that these saws are to be used with both hands, then I would also assume that there were costs involved. Now with that said, I would also assume that because these things are true and because I have never seen it written anywhere that I shouldn't use two hands on these tools, that there must not be any cost to using two hands. Now I'm sure one could argue that the cost is in less production. I'm not gonna buy that. Arborists are the kind of folks that can engineer a hazardous removal with nothing more than a rope and a stick of gum. They can certainly find a way to work productivly while still being safe. I've been a Safety and Productivity Trainer for a while now and when I have asked a group of Arborists if any of them have been cut with a chainsaw before and they raise their hands, I then ask if any of them would like to do it again, the answer is always a resounding "NO". They all say it is very painful. They all say it takes a long time to heal. They all say it cost them a lot of money. And they all say the greatest monetary cost is in loss of productivity. Now someone has said that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe a deaf and blind dog. One thing for sure is that you can't teach a dead dog anything.
My Vote Is Two Hands All The Time
My Vote Is Two Hands All The Time
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
[ QUOTE ]
...If the manufacturers have stated that two hands are to be used and they have engineered the saw with that in mind...
[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm. I don't know if the first manufacturer of that very first top handle model chainsaw had that in mind. And I think that's the real problem.
In the dark ages this model chainsaw saw the first light. The model stayed, the way we look at safe work practices changed.
It all boils down to the user. I'll bet every user that cut his arm/hand was convinced he used the saw safely right to that split second that the saw started cutting flesh.
Use the saw wisely. Use it in a way that it NEVER can start cutting flesh. In my day to day practice 95% of the time that means two handed and the other 5% is one handed out of reach of ropes and flesh.
Cars too are perfectly safe. To bad there are so many fatality's on the road. That's actually really strange, because we all know how to use that tool too.
...If the manufacturers have stated that two hands are to be used and they have engineered the saw with that in mind...
[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm. I don't know if the first manufacturer of that very first top handle model chainsaw had that in mind. And I think that's the real problem.
In the dark ages this model chainsaw saw the first light. The model stayed, the way we look at safe work practices changed.
It all boils down to the user. I'll bet every user that cut his arm/hand was convinced he used the saw safely right to that split second that the saw started cutting flesh.
Use the saw wisely. Use it in a way that it NEVER can start cutting flesh. In my day to day practice 95% of the time that means two handed and the other 5% is one handed out of reach of ropes and flesh.
Cars too are perfectly safe. To bad there are so many fatality's on the road. That's actually really strange, because we all know how to use that tool too.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Well stated PrimeApe. I'll add to that, why is our industry worker's comp rates so high? Could it be the accidents that have occurred and continue to occur despite regulations that were instituted to prevent them?
Right look at the rates of the industries that got OSHA started. Are their rates as high? Have they changed and do they self-enforce safety regs?
Right look at the rates of the industries that got OSHA started. Are their rates as high? Have they changed and do they self-enforce safety regs?
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think NO generally, but there are certainly exceptions for highly skilled cutters.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree.
[/ QUOTE ]
X2.
I use 2 hands 98% of the time while climbing in the tree. Two hands while in the bucket or on the ground 100% of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
I think NO generally, but there are certainly exceptions for highly skilled cutters.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree.
[/ QUOTE ]
X2.
I use 2 hands 98% of the time while climbing in the tree. Two hands while in the bucket or on the ground 100% of the time.
Gerald_Beranek
New member
- Location
- Ft. Bragg, Ca.
Just for the black and white of the question asked in this poll it is nutz to even think a definitive answer to the pros and cons could ever come.
But the response by the experience members in this forum to the question pretty much covers fully the gray areas of the issue.
Been there, done it and now retired.
Through my career I always weighed the risks of one handing against the potentially more dangerous aspects of the situation at hand.
Call me lucky. The only time I was ever cut by a chainsaw was when I pulled the chain around the bar the wrong way while sharpening it. Over 40 years ago.
Yet the closet calls I ever had of being seriously cut by a running saw was when I had both hands on it, and was too laxed. End of the day tired, fatigued and not sharp of mind.
My 2 cents.
But the response by the experience members in this forum to the question pretty much covers fully the gray areas of the issue.
Been there, done it and now retired.
Through my career I always weighed the risks of one handing against the potentially more dangerous aspects of the situation at hand.
Call me lucky. The only time I was ever cut by a chainsaw was when I pulled the chain around the bar the wrong way while sharpening it. Over 40 years ago.
Yet the closet calls I ever had of being seriously cut by a running saw was when I had both hands on it, and was too laxed. End of the day tired, fatigued and not sharp of mind.
My 2 cents.
So how did you vote in the poll Gerry?
I know there have been literally hundreds of times out on a leader catching the heads where I one hand the final cut and push against the stub as hard as I can riding out the catch dynamics with the other hand to move as one with the action.
Beats the heck out of having yourself beaten silly because you've got both hands on your trimsaw as the branch you're on beats yu in the face.
I know when I'm catching wood with a bigsaw the second that final cut's made I chuck the saw onto its lanyard and push like hell against the stub to ride things out without getting bounced around like a rag doll.
There is a definitive answer to the question when your well being in the tree depends on it.
I agree that 90 percent of the time it's best to keep both hands on a trimsaw. But there are situations where one handing is necessary to the dynamics of staying safe from other more imminent perils up top.
Do you know Tom Craven out of Lake Tahoe?
jomoco
I know there have been literally hundreds of times out on a leader catching the heads where I one hand the final cut and push against the stub as hard as I can riding out the catch dynamics with the other hand to move as one with the action.
Beats the heck out of having yourself beaten silly because you've got both hands on your trimsaw as the branch you're on beats yu in the face.
I know when I'm catching wood with a bigsaw the second that final cut's made I chuck the saw onto its lanyard and push like hell against the stub to ride things out without getting bounced around like a rag doll.
There is a definitive answer to the question when your well being in the tree depends on it.
I agree that 90 percent of the time it's best to keep both hands on a trimsaw. But there are situations where one handing is necessary to the dynamics of staying safe from other more imminent perils up top.
Do you know Tom Craven out of Lake Tahoe?
jomoco
Ahh man just typed out a whole response then lost it....baahhh! So here goes... again.
For the people who say "2 hands all the time" I get the message but honestly those 5-10% of cuts made 1 handed are no big deal. If my arms, legs, ropes are out of the way and I decide that I'm going to 1 hand it, what is the issue. I'm not sure about other people but I don't climb trees for fun, I climb them to get back to the ground as soon as possible. Whether that be 1 cut or 100 cuts later, if the decision is that "1 handing it" gets me down sooner, then so be it.
Obviously owners manuals will never encourage 1 handed use with a top handled saw, no owners manual will ever recommend it regardless of what kind of saw you buy. They have to cover their butts. It does seem rather odd that these saws are perfectly balanced while holding them with 1 hand. Maybe the saw manufactures secretly know that 1 handing actualy happens...naw never, the owners manual says not to.
I can honestly say I have never cut myself with a chainsaw. My silky on the other hand has drawn blood more than once, stitches once and a couple maybe coulda' used a stitch or 2. Should I not 1 hand that little blood thirsty zubat?
For the people who say "2 hands all the time" I get the message but honestly those 5-10% of cuts made 1 handed are no big deal. If my arms, legs, ropes are out of the way and I decide that I'm going to 1 hand it, what is the issue. I'm not sure about other people but I don't climb trees for fun, I climb them to get back to the ground as soon as possible. Whether that be 1 cut or 100 cuts later, if the decision is that "1 handing it" gets me down sooner, then so be it.
Obviously owners manuals will never encourage 1 handed use with a top handled saw, no owners manual will ever recommend it regardless of what kind of saw you buy. They have to cover their butts. It does seem rather odd that these saws are perfectly balanced while holding them with 1 hand. Maybe the saw manufactures secretly know that 1 handing actualy happens...naw never, the owners manual says not to.
I can honestly say I have never cut myself with a chainsaw. My silky on the other hand has drawn blood more than once, stitches once and a couple maybe coulda' used a stitch or 2. Should I not 1 hand that little blood thirsty zubat?
Gerald_Beranek
New member
- Location
- Ft. Bragg, Ca.
I didn't vote, Jo. Because there is no definitive yes or no answer to the question, other than what experience dictates.
Young climbers learning aerial chain saw handling and rigging should always hedge their bet on following the best advise and rules of technique until they become wiser and know better when its safe to do otherwise.
I learned that as we gain experience we tend to push the envelope more often to complete a task or job.
Young climbers learning aerial chain saw handling and rigging should always hedge their bet on following the best advise and rules of technique until they become wiser and know better when its safe to do otherwise.
I learned that as we gain experience we tend to push the envelope more often to complete a task or job.
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