ok.. almost lost a friend (edited title) ...whew!

Re: hard to lose a friend...

thank God that things like this don't just happen to me. I will say that even though ppeople try to take advantage of me, which I expect from time to time, I still would rather work off a handshake and do. I one time recieved a glowing 5 star YP feedback from a couple who amoung other things were so pleased and amazed that I did not require them to sign something before we did their work. They gave us a nice healthy $$$ bonus also. Distrust is not for me. If I don't feel good about someone I will not get involved in the first place. When I am suprised as in your case...I have just learned who my real friends are and can be thankful that I am not them.
I am so suprised that people getting married don't even trust each other demanding prenups of each other.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

An hourly wage of $40 per hour is nothing to cry over.

An hourly revenue for the company of $40 per hour is a whole different story.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

I still can't belive you did them 3 trees for only $1800. No wonder some companies can't make ends meet tring to bid against that.

Nice job all in all though.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

[ QUOTE ]
I still can't belive you did them 3 trees for only $1800. No wonder some companies can't make ends meet tring to bid against that.

Nice job all in all though.

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Yes nice job but...
Are you a full time tree guy, did I miss that?
That seems really cheap too me as well.

Now anyone who hears that price, neighbors or friends is going to use that as a baseline for similar services. I made the mistake before when I was new to the game of way under selling my services to a group of lake front homes. I had no idea what people were charging. We did a huge pine leaning over a garage for $1200. Got got a wakeup call after the job was done when we found out the local tree company gave an $8k bid!!

Maybe that is what you area commands but it may help you out to get your conttactor buddy to get other bids from big companies to help you feel out the market.

Gotta love that view when working near lakes!
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

the local company that bid 8k didn't get the job. Money is a tricky thing; who is bigger than GM and more educated than GM and better able to understand and predict the market
than GM but guess what; they are going under.

I have many many times over the years wished I hadn't bid so high on a job while someone else was earning $30.00 per hour doing it and I was sitting home wishing.

We are in a depression these days; meaning there is less money to go around. I just got our new ATT YP and see that about half or more of the companys from last year have shrunk their ad right out of sight. I am still silly enough or able to have a large ad because if I can't get $100.00 per hour I will do it for $30.00 and stay busy. We are often told here on TB how much we are worth (I've been told not to use the word we)...You all often tell each other here on TB how much you all are worth but there is something called Supply and Demand and like all laws of science it will not be triffled with; the customer decides what the price will be even for Walmart. When we don't buy the price goes down; when business is great the price goes up.(how could I know this never having gone to school) If the depression gets bad enough, and it may, anyone of us--I'm sorry again; anyone of you and me also will be happy to have a whole lot less than $20.00 per hour. You did alright Speelyei; keep your chin up.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

[ QUOTE ]
the local company that bid 8k didn't get the job. Money is a tricky thing; who is bigger than GM and more educated than GM and better able to understand and predict the market
than GM but guess what; they are going under.

I have many many times over the years wished I hadn't bid so high on a job while someone else was earning $30.00 per hour doing it and I was sitting home wishing.

We are in a depression these days; meaning there is less money to go around. I just got our new ATT YP and see that about half or more of the companys from last year have shrunk their ad right out of sight. I am still silly enough or able to have a large ad because if I can't get $100.00 per hour I will do it for $30.00 and stay busy. We are often told here on TB how much we are worth (I've been told not to use the word we)...You all often tell each other here on TB how much you all are worth but there is something called Supply and Demand and like all laws of science it will not be triffled with; the customer decides what the price will be even for Walmart. When we don't buy the price goes down; when business is great the price goes up.(how could I know this never having gone to school) If the depression gets bad enough, and it may, anyone of us--I'm sorry again; anyone of you and me also will be happy to have a whole lot less than $20.00 per hour. You did alright Speelyei; keep your chin up.

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I hear ya, sorry if I sounded too negative. I still bid too high every now and then, always learning. My operating costs are low, I can easily bid lower than most legit operations.

The company that bid the $8k throws bids like that out all the time because they have not had to care...yet. They get so many people that do not even understand that $8k is a lot for that. We have some uber rich summer homes up here. A contractor was telling me about a $30k bill from this same company for an air spaded trench that took a week and did not work, due to the soil or rocks not exactly sure but, they ended up tearing the roots up with a back hoe anyways. A company like this will suffer if the economy does suffer, really have not seen it yet up here.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

You can only go so low on the price before you end up paying to work. An employee getting paid 15 per hour would cost you money to employ at $30 per hour.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

well it all depends on the overhead; I own everything I have and work only with my wife; she doesn't get paid anything, only gets yelled at all day. (she says I better put a smile after this but I hope you all know that I only yell at her half of the day) I didn't say there wasn't a limit to how low one can go. One of course has to know what it costs to go out each day. Right now, today, I turn my nose up at $20.00 per hour but we'll see just how bad this depression gets. Would the employee take 10 before he would join the ranks of those who call me and everybody else in town to ask for work. Tell him to think it over. Not working at all doesn't pay either...as far as I know.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

some background and responses to observations/questions from replies:

About me: Full time salaried employee for Arbo-Consultation company, currently do 40+ as a climbing trimmer trainer. I also own my own business, that basically consists of me and my gear and a 3/4 ton pickup. I am long on experience and certs and short on hardware.

About the area: the oregon coast is a beautiful area of relatively temperate seasons with wild weather in the winter and a year-round growing season for trees. Tree-wise, it's not real diverse, about a dozen species make up 98% of the trees I encounter. Trees are generally little or huge, you're either climbing weeds or monsters.
because of it's rich timber, the area has all the socio-economic trappings that go along with it... and guys that can spin a saw are a dime a dozen. A rigging slinger or timber cutter is only two doors down in any neighborhood. There are a lot of prevalent attitudes towards trees in the community, and none of them are based on Shigo or Mattheck writings.
Most of the $$ comes from wealthy retirees and second-home buyers. As an Arborist, I am generally called on for removals, view clearance, and the occasional resto/cleaning.
A recent foray into "consulting" has basically cast me in the role of baby sitter... dealing with disputes in neighborhood that are always view related.

How I bid:
I want to give consistent bids that provide high value to the client and allow me to grow as a business.

I am not at all worried about what the "other guy" (I know them all, personally) charges. We have our local skeeved out low-baller and our own prima-donna high bidder, what they do or say is of only passing interest to me.

I made a price structure that I take with me and I stick to it pretty religiously. If I feel I am undercutting myself, I make an adjustment to the sheet and I stick to it. I have a price range depending on the scope of work, size and location of the tree, and how the debris is to be handled. I also account for the local economy, and unfortunately our service is undervalued for the reasons I listed above. So far that has saved me from low-balling myself, there have definitely been jobs I could've charged more for.

I have appreciated reading everybody's input and hearing from people all around the country. It's good to have a community like this, we're all better off for it.

In terms of my personal business and it's potential, I don't mind thinking out loud...
Currently there is no seperation between my business and my personal finances. I have been totally unable to invest a single penny of earnings into growing the business due to our families current monetary situation. Until that changes, the "business" will remain a trumped-up side-job. the foremost investment I need to make is in a presentable one-ton dump box truck... I spend a lot of time fantasizing about how great that's going to be...
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

[ QUOTE ]
At 23hrs, I'll make about $40/hr. That doesn't account for my commute time, wear and tear on my gear, gasoline, etc. Should I be happy with that, or pissed?


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I'm not sure about your market, but here legit companies would laugh at someone trying to get that job done for that kind of money. He got a HELL of a deal and you short changed yourself. Even if you are doing the job yourself, charge what the job is worth. I mean, your only risking your life you know.
 
Re: hard to lose a friend...

This is my first time reading this biz forum and I appreciate hearing everyone's perspective..

I hate underbidding jobs... Takes all the fun out of the work... Many times the difference between a great day and a total drag is just the money on the job.. That said, my bids are down 20-50% from 2-3 years ago, so I have had to adjust to the economic reality... And for many years I've usually had to beat other bids on price, so I've had to become efficient to end up making money. Always looking for a competitive advantage.

Those trees look like they should have been at least $800 each minimum, even in this economy. Adding a bit of cushion to the job. Underbiddig leads to a perpetual cycle of misery. Not enough $ creates more stress, you can't hire the proper help or afford great equipment, making the job that much harder. ( a slight twist on Buddism)

Having inexperienced ground support can cut a good climbers productivity by half or more. Always tough to tell from pics, and it looks like it would have been good to limb the middel tree first, set a high block, then rig all the outer trees from the middle tree. You could have rigged out big pieces to the middle tree with no danger of the pieces swingging back at you, but you'd need at least two good men on the ground to handle them.

So lack of good ground support made you work three times harder than needed or more. Which is taking its toll on your body and mind. I got a case of brusitis too for the same reason... Had a backyard pine tree, only one man on the ground... Could have notched and dropped it into the backyard, but it was dead and would have ended up in a million little pieces down the hill in grass. SO in order to save on clean up, I cut and chucked from a bucket truck in the neighbors driveway.. Chipper in the drive too making the clean up real easy... If there were two or three guys on the ground, I could have notched and dropped it, and went about my day, while they cleaned up. Instead, I woke up with brusitis.. (Still got it, though a good far infr-red sauna did take the edge off)..

Meeting Big Jon in 2002 helped me make a quatum leap in productivity. Sunsequently getting the 14' forrestry truck, 1590 Bandit chipprt and the super-50 rayco stump grinder, and 55' bucket truck all made huge differences in productivity... And now I just took delivery of an ASV RC-50 skid steer with turf tracks.. Used it on 3 jobs so far and it has made a huge difference.

So even in this economy, I can still make a decent dollar on the right job. I have been walking away from a lot of work lately that was offered to me if I could beat the low bid.. I just walked away from a job I bid 5700 on. She called and said she'd give it to me if I could match the 3300.. I heard from another contractor that does her maintenacne that she had prices all the way up to 12,000...

Good luck with it and keep your prices up.. Thanks for sharing.
 
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