New ITCC Event

Mark Chisholm

Mark Chisholm

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I have been giving some thought to the idea of a new event for the ITCC. I was wondering how any of you may view this?

The event I am thinking of involves felling. Would any of you like/dislike this idea? If yes, how would you see it functioning? If no, then what are the reasons for not wanting a new event?
 
Mark,

My thoughts on this: We have put too much emphasis on tree removal in the past and need to focus on tree care techniques. There are other avenues for tree felling competitions and training.

The TCC’s are also an avenue for us to promote what we do to the general public, who think that all we do is remove trees anyway. So, I think, that we should do more to promote how much we know about trees, not just what we do to them.

Dr. Alex Shigo has been suggesting for years that we need to focus more on what we do when we are in the tree and not just on how fast we get there. He had suggested that we should have a tree biology competition, not just a tree climbing competition.

My humble opinion.

TMW
 
Booooooooooo! Leave tree felling to the loggers. Because the comp revolves around climbing efficiency and safety, there could be some type of special recognition for the most innovative technique used which meets the safety and efficiency criteria. However, the criteria for such an award would need to be defined.

Joe :)
 
I think they should have some kindof event for the groundman. My thoughts are...... you could have the best guy in the tree to rig, but he isn't crap unless the ground guy is as good.

Maybe some targets on the ground to lower wood into. Rig a tree from the ground etc...

I think the tree flop competition would be fun, but tough to organize and run.

Where IS ropegod anyway?
 
When AM had their skills competition, there were two events in the tree. Actually on a log sunk in the ground.

The first involved setting up the rigging for chunking down a piece. The POW and sling needed to be set on the ground. Then the climber would go up the spar to set the top rigging. The climber could make the face cut and plunge cut first. Then set the rigging up top. Any order was fine. The event was judged by looking at the procedures and the way that the cut was set up and executed.

Later, the spar was dropped. A stake was placed where the feller thought they would put the top. When I saw the finals at one of the SSA conferences they filled plastic pop bottles with water for markers. If the log hit the bottle it sprayed. Good theater :) Accuracy and proper procedures were both scored.
 
Flopping a straight trunk with no lean is a no-brainer and should be considered a minimum skill, not something to be judged on. Flopping a dead back- or side-leaner with a rotton trunk and obstacles under the canopy might make for a more realistic judgement of skills.
 
"you could have the best guy in the tree to rig, but he isn't crap unless the ground guy is as good." I don't know about all that , I be flat broke if that was the case. I can help you rephrase that one.
- can the aerial retrieval event since it is stupid. A biology event would never work, let's be serious.
-Joe, leave the felling to loggers , what planet are you from ? that is a skill that helps you even if you are just notching a limb. Knot tying(leave that to the sailors) , felling , are events that people would want to see . Nothing against Biology Tim , but I can't see it ever being considered for a ITCC event . Maybe all the climbers can line up and do a spelling bee.
 
Riggs: I don't believe felling should be included in a competition that has traditionally emphasized skills aloft. I know the chapters can end up having a hard time getting help just to set things up the way things are now. I can't imagine how hard things would get when adding events that require felling. Insurance coverage for adding such an event would go up I bet.
You really could add some realistic insight into what it would take to set up such an event at the chapter level.

I still think special recognition should go to the most innovative idea at the event.

Joe
 
Wehn I've seen people flopping straight trunks in competition it wasn't as easy as it seems. When winning and loosing is measured in finger widths the feller needs to be accurate for the direction and the tip. Bounces don't count either.

I've proposed a pruning station at the MN TCC. It is the same as a homework assignment that I've given my students for years. A pile of brush is available. Three sample cuts for thinning, heading and drop crotching. That makes for nine points possible. Either a pass/fail system or sometimes I'll grade each cut on a 0-3 point scale. Pretty quick and simple. The cuts could be made with hand pruners, handsaws or chain saws.
 
Thanks for all of the input. I really do appreciate all of your thoughts.

There are some other forces to consider here. The ISA has to deal with sponsorship. Sponsors want to see things change and move forward from time to time. That is one reason for a new event of some sort.

The other big driving force here is spectator appeal. If we "wow" the crowd with our ability, equipment or bravery, that will help attract other groups that have yet to take an interest in our competition. The chance of getting hurt and some cool noise always draws a crowd too.

Realistically, I see the need for the new event to spark innovation and drive competitors to further improve themselves. This force has done wonders for our climbing skills and tools. It would also be great to highten awareness and encourge greater safety.

Now, how do we achieve all of this?
 
"The chance of getting hurt" !! Are you guys aware of the problems we are having with insurance for this years comps? We would never be able to implement an extra event on the basis of more chance of being hurt!
 
Rupe,

I mean the PUBLIC would pay more attention to us if the chance of injury was greater. I don't think anyone involved would want to add a more dangerous aspect. I know that I don't.

But, the public is a different stroy. Just look at where television is going.
 
A couple things that I would like to see at the TCC/ITCC are:

1.Get rid of the footlock event and have an ascent event. Lets open it up to the gear we use on a daily basis. Granted the footlockers will probablly still win but it will showcase other systems for tree ascent as well.


2.Get rid of a time limit on aerial rescue. Have bonus points for the quickest times but placing a 5 min time to rescue an injured worker is not always realistic in the real world.


3.Some sort of pruning event is a must, isn't that what we do?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but placing a 5 min time to rescue an injured worker is not always realistic in the real world.


[/ QUOTE ]

As a rope rescue instructor, I'd have to agree. But given what we now know about the rapid and potentially fatal onset of harness suspension trauma (as little as 5 minutes), it might make sense to keep that as a target.

Harness Hang Syndrome - Fact &amp; Fiction

OSHA Alert - March 2004

- Robert
 
I'm still not with you Mark. Do you mean that you want the public to think its more dangerous, without it actually being so. What are you hoping to achieve by this?
 
Here's a shot from the felling competition at Dennis Greffard's 2003 Clearwater Revival in northern BC. There were about 12 of us, with two trees left over, in the event of a tie. Which is what happened. Rotax Robert (whose Predator is the fastest unlimited hot saw, 407 lb, and over 400 hp.) and I tied, each missing the beer can target by a couple inches. In the fall off, I drew a leaner, with it's favor right where I wanted it..Bingo, squashed beer can, and $100 won!

Haha, ,felling would be about the only event this old geezer could do well at.
 
The perception of "risk" to the public adds a certain jazz. Not unlike pro-rasslin', roundy round car racing or demolition derbies.

This is going to be a tough one since it has to be repeated 40 plus times at the ITCC. It might be another station for the Master's Challenge climbers though.

Tom
 
I wouldn't set it up at a chapter level , the chapter tcc's are fine , add the felling to the ITCC( that's the "SHOW") . Here's a scenario , the top five(4?) guys in the masters drop a log right after they get out of the tree, that's what we do anyway, right? Only five(4?) poles to set , and fatigue will be a factor.
-one more comment on the aerial retrieval event , since i"ve been involved in Tcc's , we all know it is stupid, but we are just tree climbers, what do we know? I'm going back to early eighties.Grab the guy and go , like fast food , drive thru rescue, you win.It is a good thing aerial rescue but it would cost people money to change any type of training. Every event at a TCC or ITCC we can say that's how we would do it at work , or learn something that could help us at work . What are we learning from the AR event? we are telling people watching "this is just for show and points". The best aerial rescue I saw was at Hilton head, a German Climber, he took his time , got the guy was just so smooth, he didn't even get in the top ten, he was slow and he took his time .
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...harness suspension trauma ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Robert;

Thanks for the links. I tried to post a similar discussion, but couldn't get it to attach. I think Tom has the link 'Will Your Safety Harness Kill You?' (by Weems and Bishop) and has posted it before. This article is also one of the references in the OSHA Bulletin. Weems and Bishop, and OSHA give a slghtly different explanation from Ivy of how the type of harness may play a role in this phenomenom. An article by the same authors will appear in an upcoming issue of AN.

Mahk
 
I too think the arial rescue event stinks. COME ON! If we realistically waited for EMS to show up, the guy would be DEAD! No need to hurry then.

I think this event needs to dis-evolve back to the days of installing your own rope, get to the worker, and get them down. The scenario could be that it is a 3 man crew. that may eliminate some of the show I saw at one comp.

As for new events, what about a 'Junk Chainsaw Toss'. It could be similar to the hammer throw in track/field. A junk saw w/ bar&amp;chain, add a saw strap.....spin in circles.....faster...FAster...FASTer....THROW!!!!!!! Farthest throw wins. One chance. Winner gets the saw + a new one! I know no saw company would want thiers used, but there are enough out there that look identical, one could be pieced together that had 6 different colors and no lables.

I too think a tree test would be good. If we are supposed to be arborists, why not test us on skills beyond climbing?

One last idea, why not have the climber in the work climb carry a chainsaw? How many times do most of us climb w/o one? make the limb toss station such that you have to fire the saw, cut the limb, and THEN toss it. A simple cut through would not receive points, style, innovation would earn add. bonus. hitting target = points. the same saw used for every climber or byo.

later!
David
 
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