Moving in the canopy with near vertical limbs

SomethingWitty

Arkansawyer
Location
LR
The biggest "aha!" moment in my career was realizing that there is a secret to being fast. That secret is to just get out there and cut it. Stopping and thinking is something you do while you wait on groundies to get out of the way, not when you're supposed to be going to set rigging at the spot you picked from the ground or the redirect you knew you wanted as soon as you got to the top.
With a little thought at the appropriate times and practice you can have gear retrieved from the truck and tied on just as you need it instead of getting to where you will need it and waiting five minutes... It is all tied together.
I didn't mean to rant, I just get irritated by tricks that make you waste time and use a bunch of stuff when you could be done already, and usually just as easily!
I need to climb. We've been on firewood for a week in a kind of freak cold snap for the area and I'm antsy.
 

SomethingWitty

Arkansawyer
Location
LR
It isn’t just about being fast it’s about being smart and safe.

Furthermore, things sometimes change when you’re in the tree versus looking at it from the ground. That means you may have to come up with a new plan. It’s not always cut and dry. Taking the time to think it through is smart not time wasting. Make the ground guy’s wait if you have to.

If there are new climbers on here who don’t have a lot of experience we should be careful talking about being fast, etc. Someone could interpret “just get out there and cut it” as throwing caution to the winds and doing whatever and that’s how accidents happen. I rather someone take an extra minute to think it through then do something they are uncertain of and have something happen. Whatever they feel comfortable with to get the job done safely in my opinion. And that goes for a climber at any experience level.

There is nothing wrong with taking extra time to ensure you feel comfortable and safe with what you are doing.
I am not saying that isn't true. Efficiency is far too underemphasized in safe spaces like this when it is so obviously rewarded in the real world by virtually every workplace.
I've worked with several climbers who would waste the whole day trying to keep from climbing when they were already in the tree.
I can't believe that people actually need to hear me say "don't do stuff that will hurt you when you're just doing it instead of goofing off and staring at a branch that isn't changing today". Give folks some credit.
Not everyone has to think as fast as I do, but learning that the right answer is probably to just climb the tree and cut it where you need to does just as much for greenhorns as pretending that it's okay to go big if you think it will fit and it looks hard to climb out and take it smaller.

You can't usually think it into being easy.
 

SomethingWitty

Arkansawyer
Location
LR
I agree that safety and efficiency should work together. You can be safe and also be efficient and get things done and move on. But efficiency can’t come at the price of sacrificing safety.

Unfortunately there are some in the industry that will cut corners and utilize unsafe practices just to get it done faster putting the lives of the climber and rest of the crew at risk not to mention risk to a client’s property.

Whatever. CLEARLY you all misinterpreted what I said but everyone has their opinion.
You're not wrong, but I like to race. Contracting or working with contract climbers that will run with me is my idea of a good time.

I appreciate your sentiment. I also don't feel an obligation to tell any impressionable climbers anything but the truth. If they die, they weren't paying attention, weren't being properly supervised, weren't trained well enough, or they just had a bit of bad luck. The individual climber can address three of those issues, and I encourage them to.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
You are spot on here. Direct and uncomplicated doesnt mean unsafe. The way I see people learning to climb today is that the rope has to be directly above the climber.
But OW that is the most comfy one gets in a tree. Flat angles torment new climbers.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
You're not wrong, but I like to race. Contracting or working with contract climbers that will run with me is my idea of a good time.

I appreciate your sentiment. I also don't feel an obligation to tell any impressionable climbers anything but the truth. If they die, they weren't paying attention, weren't being properly supervised, weren't trained well enough, or they just had a bit of bad luck. The individual climber can address three of those issues, and I encourage them to.
Some are born to climb some not so much.
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
You're not wrong, but I like to race. Contracting or working with contract climbers that will run with me is my idea of a good time.
Never meet a truly great climber that felt the need to race... Ever

Set YOUR pace and get the job done safely and efficiently...Move on to the next one...Rinse Repeat.

This is the process which creates longevity, which in turn creates truly great climbers...
 
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swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
I work alone with the exception of ground staff. No one to race. I am just working to the goal. Getting tree specced to what I quoted. Bring it in on time. Me and my quote clock.....it took me years to tighten this up to the point I am at now. I got there learning how to be efficient with my planning of route, movement through the tree and my rigging and cutting skills. As I progressed the profits increased by mastering my craft. I also learned to quote my worth. Speed increases over time if you are built for climbing both mentally and physically. My 2 cents.
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
Location
Lafayette
I feel there is a big difference between cutting corners and eliminating unnecesary steps. Even with SRT I dont use alot of redirects because I am comfortable with the rope at a steep angle which allows me to go right back to the center and go out to another section without pulling rope and resetting up the rope for another section. I climb alot of big Plains Cottonwood and the majority of the time I hit the ground with my original TIP and the rope not through and around branches. There is nothing unsafe about this, climb line always tight, lanyard employed when a big swing could happen. I choose to use my climbing skill versus employing extra gear. Never a race for me just the desire to win the chess match in as little moves as possible.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
We all opt for differing styles as we grow our climbing skills. That is because our physical attributes differ. I love a redirect. My wild ass tropical trees dictate it's use. Rope angles can be crazy in mushroom trees.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
Okay so say someone wanted to use an extra climb line simply for the sake of better work positioning, not because they feel they have to. Are you gonna assume that just because they are using extra gear it isn’t efficient, or they’re slow, or a newbie etc. just because they don’t operate with less gear? I’ve seen some climbers do this to great efficiency. In some cases faster than with just one line.

What’s wrong with that if it works for someone? It doesn’t mean they are any less experienced, capable, or efficient as someone who uses just one line.
No wrong in treework. Just as long as climber performs task efficiently. Takes skill to use multiple lines efficiently. I hardly use more than one line. But when I do it is for a specific task. Cannot even remember the last time and scenario. I do employ my tail occasionally.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
It was only in the last 1-2 years I’ve started experimenting with it for large-medium trees, mainly Pruning work. Not every job.

Sometimes I may tie into both, sometimes I may hop on one and hop off the other, etc. and I’ve found it saves me time and speeds up my work process.

I don’t see that as being unnecessary steps or lack of experience, I see it as a different tool in the arsenal.
If it works and helps speed things up for you then it's a win.
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
Location
Lafayette
Okay so say someone wanted to use an extra climb line simply for the sake of better work positioning, not because they feel they have to. Are you gonna assume that just because they are using extra gear it isn’t efficient, or they’re slow, or a newbie etc. just because they don’t operate with less gear? I’ve seen some climbers do this to great efficiency. In some cases faster than with just one line.

What’s wrong with that if it works for someone? It doesn’t mean they are any less experienced, capable, or efficient as someone who uses just one line and that’s the problem. Some people seem to judge other climbers as being less experienced or slower just because they choose to have an extra tool or two in their climbing arsenal.
No one is saying anything is wrong
eTo my question though.

Why do people seem to think that just because some climbers take extra steps that others may not or have a different point of view it makes them slow or inexperienced? That’s the vibe I get on here anyway.
No vibe here, I will be direct. Unnecesary extra steps take more time, meaning slower. More experience teachs how to avoid unnecesary steps.
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
Location
Lafayette
Okay maybe it’s my interpretation then. Let me rephrase.

But how do you determine what is necessary and unnecessary in terms of just having discussion like we did tonight about different methods, etc.? Every job is different and you really have to see it to be able to assess whether a method could be considered unnecessary or necessary.

I totally get your guys’ point of view and I agree with you. In some cases extra gear is just a burden and can even get in the way and cause problems. On the other hand sometimes it can be beneficial.

I probably should’ve emphasized when I originally brought that subject up that I was only referring to specific situations where it may be beneficial, not all climbing scenarios.
Ok we are talking in general terms meaning the majority of the time. There will always be exceptions. How do you determine what is necesary or unnecesary. How can I accomplish this with less gear and time without comprimising safety. More gear more steps= more time spent. Example if you need a better position, why use 2 ropes? SRT with a redirect or SRT to main TIP use the tail of the rope to drop down DDRT, hell I will use a taunt line hitch drop down then pull the tail. The OP question, which is the real question is how do you get from 1 lead to another, whether you use 2 ropes or redirect SRT doesnt matter you still need to get yourself or a rope there. No one is advocating for less safety for speed and nobody here is judging, only discussing how we can get better at what we are passionate about. My wife thinks I am f ing crazy, 30+ years climbing and feel the need to spend time talking here about it.
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
Location
Lafayette
Okay maybe it’s my interpretation then. Let me rephrase.

But how do you determine what is necessary and unnecessary in terms of just having discussion like we did tonight about different methods, etc.? Every job is different and you really have to see it to be able to assess whether a method could be considered unnecessary or necessary?

I totally get your guys’ point of view and I agree with you. In some cases extra gear is just a burden and can even get in the way and cause problems. On the other hand sometimes it can be beneficial.

I probably should’ve emphasized when I originally brought that subject up that I was only referring to specific situations where it may be beneficial, not all climbing scenarios.

Even if you could do the job with one line, there may be advantages to using two in certain situations was my line of thinking.
Good to know many techniques and gear, more important to know when to use what.
 

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