Midwest TCC

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If that climber completes the events, and has demonstrated safe and confident climbing skills, they should be supported to go the ITCC
Melissa

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I believe this has been brought up as a qualifying determination in the past.
Let's keep in mind that not all events were completed. Footlock was not completed within the allotted time. Timed out in the Aerial rescue. Over time in the work climb. And a zero in the throwline.

I know she gave it her best and did great considering she isn't even in the tree climbing business. But come on people, how does this qualify you for a free trip to the internationals. If it does then you can be d a m n sure i'm gonna give my girlfriend about a weeks worth of lessons in the back yard before we go to next years comp. That way in case i fail to win i can hide in her suitcase for a free trip to hawaii next year. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I still say that if she was the best female climber of the day, then she should be treated with as much respect and professionalism as the male competitor and be given the same support. She might not win, true, but is it just about winning? And what happens next year or the year after that?
 
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I recall there was only the one woman in the recent competition.


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What if only 1 man showed up to compete. Would they automatically send him?
Like I said in the last post. If someone shows up to compete and completes all 5 prelims, they should go to INT'LS. Two of the guys who made it to the Master's Challenge in Indy, didn't even attempt the "Secured Footlock" event during the prelims.
 
Folks,
I'm both on the board of the MW, and am a judge. The general feeling was that showing up and competing was not and is not sufficient to get a free ride to the Internationals. It's hardly fair to the twenty some-odd men competing.
Our woman competitor was not very good. She wouldn't get hired as a climber at any company... yet! She will improve, I'll guarantee that. I'm sure she learned a great deal just by competing... but her performance certainly did not merit a trip to the Internationals.
We were asked to judge her predicated on the women at the international. We had no way to do that, not having the scores, times, etc. Perhaps the board will request the scores, times, etc. from the international to do just that next year. The board can then decide where she needs to be in that mix in order for us to sponsor her.
 
Sorry to play devils advocate over here, but.........

Was the woman competitor informed prior to the competition of the standards that she would have to reach in order to achieve the ticket to International? If not then you should send her to International this year and make your reward based on performance take effect next year when she at least knows the score and what is expected of her.

I am pretty dang sure that you need to compete in all of the prelimary events in order to be eligible to reach the masters climb. If you set up to do the foot lock and then drop a piece of equipment you will be disqualified, but in some minds at least you made the effort. If you decide to avoid the event altogether because you know you won't score and you want to save energy, that is something else altogether. If I took second place in the masters to a guy who avoided the speed events to save energy I would definitely feel somewhat cheated. We recently switched our scoring for the competitions (in Ohio) from everyone starting equal in the masters to the climbers taking in their points (and their point advantages) to the masters. This makes it a little more important to work all the events and not just concentrate on a few. We feel that we will get a better overall representative for the chapter if they must be strong in each of the events rather than just playing to the points in the masters.
 
I stand corrected. The rule requiring the contestant to compete in all five events in order to be eligible for the Masters Climb is a chapter rule only. There is no such rule in the International rule book.
 
Rich h,
The woman competitor notified the Chapter she would be competing, and asked, if she was the only woman, was it automatic she was going to the International... that was our first indication there might be issues. She was told what the board's decision had been when women last competed three years ago.
The Board met the day before the competition for our regular meeting, and we came up with what we came up with.
Our prior postion had been that they needed to place in the top 3 to go on to the Master's Challenge.
This year, top 5.
It's a touchy thing. Some want the Israeli Army paradigm; some want to send the best if we have three; some have no opinion.
If I understand most competitions, there is nothing to stop this competitor from going to another Chapter to compete. Until this last competition, I don't believe she had even been a chapter member.
Look at Brandon's post a few back... I think he sees the dilemma better than do you.
 
KCGuy

The issue I raised was whether or not the woman competitor knew of the qualifications prior to the event. It sounds like she did and therefore you have no problems, she will just need to try a little harder next year. If the question of her skill came up after the fact then I feel she would have an arguement for you to send her.
 
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Rich h,

Our prior postion had been that they needed to place in the top 3 to go on to the Master's Challenge.
This year, top 5.


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KC,

Not sure exactly who you are but I have a pretty good idea....WELCOME! Its good to shed some light on this from the inside.

Now to the above quote...Ive discussed this w/ brandon several times and you have to admit a woman to place Top 5 in a mens division would be dam tough. I dont have the final results anymore, but I do remember 2-6/7 were within about 10 pts of each other... And then look at who was in 7-10. We have a very tough top 10 (and im sure our chapter is not the only one either) and I think the boards decision is to strict.

Im NOT saying though she deserves the trip. I do think there needs to be a bar set for her to achieve including completing the masters challenge. If she were to have finished 5th, would Ann have climbed that sycamore? or because she was 5th and the only female she could skip the finals and go.

All good questions and things that need to be addressed as Im sure it will come up again. Hopefully Ann will be back next yr and Ive heard talk there is a gal from Iowa that was going to climb but backed out as her male co-worker didnt climb. Next yr could be the year we have a true womens division.
 
I do agree with okie. I think many of the top women at the internationals would find it quite challenging to place top three in our division. There definitely is a group of 5-7 guys who are all of nearly equal skill and who could win on any day. I think it nearly impossible for a first time (men or women) climber to come in and expect to place top three in our chapter.
 
Folks,
I'm going to try to find out... but I doubt that there's good info...
I do not believe that there is a SINGLE working climbing woman arborist in the MW Chapter area... all seven states... none I've heard of, anyway.
Does the Int'l know how many of the "Tree Climber Specialists" are women?
However, there are MANY hispanics... many blacks... many asians... many whatevers! Why did we (I mean the INT'l) choose to pick out women as the group to "prefer"?
If we are doing a Kumbaya "reachout", why not these other groups?
Those of you who wrote that we (MW ISA) should have sent the single woman... how many women climbers work for your company? How many for the municipality in which you reside? How many in your chapter?
I've heard that women are becoming more and more prevalent in the "arborist" classification. This I know, and I welcome it. However, "arborist" is not "climber".
You may have realized that I'm the main proponent of the Israeli Army paradigm... they acknowledge no sexes, no preferences, no nothing... if you can do the job, you're in... if you can't, you're not.
Isn't that truly non-discriminatory?
(Ducking and weaving now)...
 
KCGuy,

I am not quite sure how may competitors you had at your competition, but I can pretty well guarantee that a few of the possible male competitors in your seven state area chose not to participate. This has always been the case for competitions and more than likely always will be. There can be no doubt that there are women arborists working as climbers in your chapter. They may not call themselves arborists or even climbers, but they are there working just as hard as everyone else. Chances are the ratio of men to women you had as competitors is not too far off from the actual ratio of men and women working arborists in the area. Like you I have no data to back this, but if one of us is high and the other low, then the answer may be somewhere in the middle.

Here in Ohio we have many, many women working in the field as climbers. I have personally employed several and would again at the drop of a hat. I have helped to train many more and look forward to doing so again. As our field increasingly encourages women to climb I think we will see more and more women competing. I don't think International picked out women competitors as a "cause" for them to champion, they just saw the writing on the wall and knew they had better support the increasing numbers of women or the women would go elsewhere for the same educational opportunities that we men often take for granted, which includes competitions.

I hope you don't take this as confrontational in any way. I only want to point out that women climbers in our area is not uncommon. These women deserve and get the same support from the ISA that the men get. Race, religion, and nationality have nothing to do with anything as far as I am concerned. If you choose to compete you should be treated equally among your peers. Men are physically different from women and therefore should be tested differently in competitions. Its only my opinion but I think the system being used now is very fair and helps to encourage both men and women to compete and make themselves better climbers.
 
Rich,

I think KCguy's estimate of the amount of women climbing within our chapter are about right. We're located in one of the largest metropolitan areas within our chapter and between kcguy and i we know a pretty good majority of the companies within our area. I'm pretty darn sure there isn't a single woman within our area climbing. We should also keep in mind that even if they there were would they be climbing in a manner comparable to the competition..I.E. without spurs...
 
Rich h
Very good point. You know, with the newer equipment and techniques, I really don't think brute strength is mandatory for our industry any longer.
Good pruning is more art and science than brawn, and the only real physical limitation is the ability to ascend, and move around within the canopy...
One good thing that's already come out of it, is that there are, right now, several women being trained in foot-lock, body thrust, throw-line and aerial rescue techniques! They may not be climbers yet, but folks are realizing there's no reason they can't be.
Without Ann having started the ball rolling, many would not have had that opportunity. It's also made our Chapter re-think the entire chapter (pun intended), and that discussion cannot be a bad thing.
I'll bet money (don't ask me how much yet) that our Chapter will have at least 5 women compete next year... and this will all be mooted (and muted?).
We're doing a climber training next Saturday (refresher type)... any women in the KC area interested in competition?
 
Oh, yeah...
Yeah, David, it's Mark Young.
I wasn't trying to be anonymous, just acrimonious!
We don't have a problem with a women's competition, and (without trying to speak for the Board) I think we want one.
In the future, I trust that we'll see one.
The dilemma is, and will be, how to score only one or two competitors against a larger field (i.e. international).
It might be that the Int'l can give us the score logs from the ITCC... and then we have to decide... will we send someone who breaks into the top 50th percentile? ... or the 80th?... or are we gonna insist upon top 25%?
Last year our entrant was right in the middle of the pack in the ITCC. Surely we won't hold a woman to a higher standard...
See the problem?
We are DECIDEDLY open for suggestions.
 
Hi Mark,

I thought it was you.

I do indeed hope next yr we have a larger womans field. Sure, it may make for a longer day since there would be two different masters challenges, but oh well.

As for the scoring, I dont think the women should be scored in comparison to the mens field. If there is 1 woman that successfully completes all 5 prelims, she should climb the masters tree successfully w/in time to go to the intl. If there are 5 women, there would be a masters challenge and the top 1 would go on to intl.

It will be up to the BOD to make funding available for both contestants as well. If you didnt know, i think my name is on the upcoming ballot for a director spot...Id appreciate your vote.
 
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