Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Wow nice house. I have no idea how they did it. We got sent to it on the fire truck and then called the people who actually know how to fix the issue
MAD for residential service drops
- Thread starter WannaClimb
- Start date
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
@Shadowscape i have some
Thoughts but I’m at the gym then grocery shopping. Typing on the phone is t great so I’ll respond later. We agree on some points but might differ on some philosophy
Thoughts but I’m at the gym then grocery shopping. Typing on the phone is t great so I’ll respond later. We agree on some points but might differ on some philosophy
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
John Prine's grandpa was one who did that.
A neighbor used the foil from a pack of cigarettes to wrap a fuse in his car that kept popping. Ended up burning his car to the ground in his driveway.
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
The pennies in the fuse holder is quite a common practice still. Unfortunately.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
@Shadowscape I understand and agree to some extent. True information is key but discouraging anyone from doing anything with the line that isn't a professional who works with electricity could be an engineering control, no? For instance, lineman have to wear the gloves handling the house feed even when its ben cut at the pole. We could argue it's reenergized and safe to lick if you so choose but the rule remains as a matter of practice and just incases. If we take out the possibility to skin contact the wires then we should never have an incident even though we probably wouldn't regardless. Maybe its an effort to protect from that one freak occurrence that could kill a single lineman. Much like I hand you a gun I unloaded and say I unloaded. Maybe you even saw me do it but,,,,,,,,,its prudent and SOP for you to safe that weapon yourself. The gun in my hand is only safe if I say so. Kind of an engineering control to have a system of checks and balances so NOBODY gets shot. Maybe not the best example but hopefully it shows my line of thinking. Always wear a seatbelt. If you always wear it then the protection is always there kinda think. Never tough a wire as an arborist because if you never tough it, it'll never shock you kinda approach.
"Take the service drop that arced when lifted you were talking about. The fact that it arced scared you." Nope-----not scared. It allowed me to recognize something beyond my expertise was presently wrong due to an action we were taking. We weren't the ones with the expertise to mitigate the issue so it was a flag to let us know to leave it alone and let the power company know. Scared--no. I'm not a person who gets scared. I've mitigated life and death situations most of my life for myself and many others following my command. What I am is aware of my surroundings and can se flags letting me know something isn't rite. If I'm not trained and qualified to address said issue, I then contact the pro to get it done. It was arching to the tree where the insulation/covering of the house drop had worn away from rubbing against the tree. When they lifted the line, it made direct contact and arched, made noise, whatever the appropriate term is but there was a pathway from the wire to the tree actively doing what it does. I watched a Pecan Tree one night in a wind storm roast the pecans all over the tree. They popped like popcorn while we waited for the power company to show up and kill the line. It was dark out and the nuts glowed until they popped. Was pretty cool. The tree survived and is still looking healthy to this day.
"If you lift a service drop with a fiberglass pole or a wooden pole, you are not going to get hurt. Not one bit." This is what my training has taught me. Those Jameson poles with aluminum on both ends, the ones that rattle around in the box, dirty, with oil on them and cracks will conduct. A pole that wont conduct has no metal, is tested, clean, intact, and kept in storage in a way where the continuity will not degrade. We used to have wooden Pike Poles in the FD. We were taught they were only nonconductive if they had zero moisture content, had about 1/2" of poly on them that was not cracked or broken. It had to be bone dry, clean as a whistle, and coated in order for it to be non conductive. If any of those factors wasn't present then you could have a contact. I've been lit up as have many others pulling walls and ceilings in house fires with house power that was supposed to be d/c by pulling the meter only to find some backwards cheat the power company wiring feeding some of the house. Nobody died but it wasn't ok. It was also my training with the new pike pokes that are fiberglass, they have to be clean to be nonconductive. Like really clean. We had a rookie who painted all ours with spray paint because he thought it would look cool. The Dear Chief this is why we need all new stuff for the truck letter was my responsibility. This isn't a wives tale, the reference I'm talking abut are common knowledge and well documented within the FD. Not saying its correct for someone with your training and expertise but I'm not gonna participate in an operation involving me or my truck to lift up a line with a shitty dirty pole that has metal on both ends when you could have just had a service drop. Also not gonna let you stand on my truck and lift those lines either. Not in my playbook and I will not expose my business, finances, and family to any litigation because I have been trained not to do stuff like that. I will leave your job site if you are going to do something that puts me or my business in jeopardy. You don't wanna wear a helmet, thats your issue but if you want me to crane logs from you while you're in the tree rigging and cutting with no helmet.....nope. I'll not participate in that.
I hear what you're saying but even if my information is absolutely wrong, whats the worst that will happen? I'll go one more day not exposing myself to the chance the planets lined up for that one freak time the house feed blasted me at the rite time and I was too dead to tell you what happened. I do hear you though and respect your knowledge. Just wanted you to see where I'm coming from. I'm not scared of electricity. I respect the fact that in circumstances I wont always understand, it can and will fuck me up! I want to make sure it doesn't.
"Take the service drop that arced when lifted you were talking about. The fact that it arced scared you." Nope-----not scared. It allowed me to recognize something beyond my expertise was presently wrong due to an action we were taking. We weren't the ones with the expertise to mitigate the issue so it was a flag to let us know to leave it alone and let the power company know. Scared--no. I'm not a person who gets scared. I've mitigated life and death situations most of my life for myself and many others following my command. What I am is aware of my surroundings and can se flags letting me know something isn't rite. If I'm not trained and qualified to address said issue, I then contact the pro to get it done. It was arching to the tree where the insulation/covering of the house drop had worn away from rubbing against the tree. When they lifted the line, it made direct contact and arched, made noise, whatever the appropriate term is but there was a pathway from the wire to the tree actively doing what it does. I watched a Pecan Tree one night in a wind storm roast the pecans all over the tree. They popped like popcorn while we waited for the power company to show up and kill the line. It was dark out and the nuts glowed until they popped. Was pretty cool. The tree survived and is still looking healthy to this day.
"If you lift a service drop with a fiberglass pole or a wooden pole, you are not going to get hurt. Not one bit." This is what my training has taught me. Those Jameson poles with aluminum on both ends, the ones that rattle around in the box, dirty, with oil on them and cracks will conduct. A pole that wont conduct has no metal, is tested, clean, intact, and kept in storage in a way where the continuity will not degrade. We used to have wooden Pike Poles in the FD. We were taught they were only nonconductive if they had zero moisture content, had about 1/2" of poly on them that was not cracked or broken. It had to be bone dry, clean as a whistle, and coated in order for it to be non conductive. If any of those factors wasn't present then you could have a contact. I've been lit up as have many others pulling walls and ceilings in house fires with house power that was supposed to be d/c by pulling the meter only to find some backwards cheat the power company wiring feeding some of the house. Nobody died but it wasn't ok. It was also my training with the new pike pokes that are fiberglass, they have to be clean to be nonconductive. Like really clean. We had a rookie who painted all ours with spray paint because he thought it would look cool. The Dear Chief this is why we need all new stuff for the truck letter was my responsibility. This isn't a wives tale, the reference I'm talking abut are common knowledge and well documented within the FD. Not saying its correct for someone with your training and expertise but I'm not gonna participate in an operation involving me or my truck to lift up a line with a shitty dirty pole that has metal on both ends when you could have just had a service drop. Also not gonna let you stand on my truck and lift those lines either. Not in my playbook and I will not expose my business, finances, and family to any litigation because I have been trained not to do stuff like that. I will leave your job site if you are going to do something that puts me or my business in jeopardy. You don't wanna wear a helmet, thats your issue but if you want me to crane logs from you while you're in the tree rigging and cutting with no helmet.....nope. I'll not participate in that.
I hear what you're saying but even if my information is absolutely wrong, whats the worst that will happen? I'll go one more day not exposing myself to the chance the planets lined up for that one freak time the house feed blasted me at the rite time and I was too dead to tell you what happened. I do hear you though and respect your knowledge. Just wanted you to see where I'm coming from. I'm not scared of electricity. I respect the fact that in circumstances I wont always understand, it can and will fuck me up! I want to make sure it doesn't.
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ghostice
Been here a while
Great thread - does someone who knows something about this stuff (definitely not me . . . ) care to comment on how home gen sets scattered around the 'hood maybe can complicate things - even if a utility guy has turned off the "power" for work on a tree? I've anecdotally heard all sorts of blah, blah over the years. Appreciate real info . . .
Cheers
Cheers
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
Home generators. Power goes out from a storm and everybody wants to plug in their generator they bought at Home Depot for just such an occasion, but they are not willing to spend the money for a disconnect switch. All that does is back feed the lines I and the REA fellows are working on. We put ground clamps on the line before and after the areas we are working for just that reason.
For those out there who have a portable generator and want to use it during a power outage, and you don't have a disconnect switch, please just pull your meter out, or at minimum, turn the main breaker off on your breaker panel. If we did our job the way we should, we are not going to get hurt, but it sure would be nice if people understood more about what is happening when they fire up their Coleman 4000 watt waste of money and plug it into their house electrical system. What was a dead line because it was broken, or a fuse blew from a storm is now hot to us because of your need to have a light bulb going and not wanting to spend a few extra dollars on a disconnect switch.
I could talk hours on grounding/not grounding, bonding/not bonding generators, but that is for another time and place.
And if you lift a service drop and it arcs, and you keep at it, you are an idiot because something is wrong and you are just going to make it worse.
I don't have a problem with you deciding what you are willing to let go on, either. Your business, your equipment, your life. Your decision is what is important.
But I do have a problem with not training arborists about things they will be dealing with. And let's face it, arborists will be dealing with service drops. They are a part of the landscape they work in. Keep away is not training.
Look at your firefighter job. You get training about electrical hazards. I know you do because my son is a fireman/first responder. Your training doesn't say, stay away. What it does is tell you the hazards you may, and will run into and the dangers involved and what you do to prevent being hurt. Why can't we do that with arborists? But we don't, we just tell them to stay away.
There are a lot of rules laid down for linemen to follow when working. Insulated gloves are one. Are they needed, yes! Why? Because they may be touching a hot line and they are the return path for the electricity to go home.
I will tell you that you can take your fiberglass pole with the metal end and saw it off so there is only one inch of fiberglass and poke it on a bare spot on a residential service drop all you want and you are not going to fell even the slightest buzz. 120 volts just doesn't work that hard to overcome that resistance. Look at your extension cord once again. Less than an 1/8" China made plastic insulates you from the same 120 volts that is in your service drop. You touch that extension cord without giving it a second thought, and yet you worry about a 4',8', 12'. 16' whatever fiberglass pole touching the same voltage.
The rules about dirty poles and oily poles, and paint are there for a reason, just like the linemen wearing gloves. For the weird unknown that you don't see coming. All good procedures. But you are trained to handle those situation by keep your poles clean and how to be safe. Let's train the arborists the same way.
Not training them is, in my mind, stupid and dangerous. It is akin to telling a 17 year old that we are not going to teach you how to drive a car. Just stay away from them. They are going to drive a car anyway, just like the arborists who are going to lift service drops with a pole. The kid who was not taught how to drive is going to crash, and the arborist is going to get hurt. Or he will set the pecan tree afire.
For those out there who have a portable generator and want to use it during a power outage, and you don't have a disconnect switch, please just pull your meter out, or at minimum, turn the main breaker off on your breaker panel. If we did our job the way we should, we are not going to get hurt, but it sure would be nice if people understood more about what is happening when they fire up their Coleman 4000 watt waste of money and plug it into their house electrical system. What was a dead line because it was broken, or a fuse blew from a storm is now hot to us because of your need to have a light bulb going and not wanting to spend a few extra dollars on a disconnect switch.
I could talk hours on grounding/not grounding, bonding/not bonding generators, but that is for another time and place.
I have no problem with what you said at all.
And if you lift a service drop and it arcs, and you keep at it, you are an idiot because something is wrong and you are just going to make it worse.
I don't have a problem with you deciding what you are willing to let go on, either. Your business, your equipment, your life. Your decision is what is important.
But I do have a problem with not training arborists about things they will be dealing with. And let's face it, arborists will be dealing with service drops. They are a part of the landscape they work in. Keep away is not training.
Look at your firefighter job. You get training about electrical hazards. I know you do because my son is a fireman/first responder. Your training doesn't say, stay away. What it does is tell you the hazards you may, and will run into and the dangers involved and what you do to prevent being hurt. Why can't we do that with arborists? But we don't, we just tell them to stay away.
There are a lot of rules laid down for linemen to follow when working. Insulated gloves are one. Are they needed, yes! Why? Because they may be touching a hot line and they are the return path for the electricity to go home.
I will tell you that you can take your fiberglass pole with the metal end and saw it off so there is only one inch of fiberglass and poke it on a bare spot on a residential service drop all you want and you are not going to fell even the slightest buzz. 120 volts just doesn't work that hard to overcome that resistance. Look at your extension cord once again. Less than an 1/8" China made plastic insulates you from the same 120 volts that is in your service drop. You touch that extension cord without giving it a second thought, and yet you worry about a 4',8', 12'. 16' whatever fiberglass pole touching the same voltage.
The rules about dirty poles and oily poles, and paint are there for a reason, just like the linemen wearing gloves. For the weird unknown that you don't see coming. All good procedures. But you are trained to handle those situation by keep your poles clean and how to be safe. Let's train the arborists the same way.
Not training them is, in my mind, stupid and dangerous. It is akin to telling a 17 year old that we are not going to teach you how to drive a car. Just stay away from them. They are going to drive a car anyway, just like the arborists who are going to lift service drops with a pole. The kid who was not taught how to drive is going to crash, and the arborist is going to get hurt. Or he will set the pecan tree afire.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
@Shadowscape Excellent response. I do agree with you and have enjoyed this conversation. I meant to address the extension chord. If my buddy had an extension chord that arched I'd call him an idiot of he didn't replace it immediately. Same with the person that had 30 things plugged into it and it runs under the rug and its hot to touch. LOL. I haven't ever looked at a house feed like an extension chord. Great analogy. I do look at mine and make sure the cover is intact before I use it and after. I maintain it in proper working order. Again. great conversation!
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
I can understand the point that the coating is both. However, in conversation and working with linemen in both the USA and Canada, I have never observed one work with or on with out appropriate PPE.
In essence we have two interpretations and I am fine with that. A interpretation for those trained and qualified to work WITH the lines. And a definition for those who have to work AROUND them.
Tony
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
Ditto! Been a good conversation. Most enjoyable.
Stumpsprouts
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Asheville
I love this. This has really been on my mind and I couldn’t quite put it to words.
Also the story of the pecan tree- completely mind blowing!
Anecdote from the same place with the 600 v cabinets and millwrights. Guy tin foiled a 600v fuse - kabang fireball!! Glad I wasn't there. Met the twit - concluded he was a twit before I heard the stories.
Nervous : rigged up a home brew impedance plethysmograph through chest cavity - geez the isolation better all be correct!!! There was some homework done on that deal I tell ya. Used 100 kHz few(?) mA gave nice heart waveform. Don't think I'd have the mental courage and certainty to pull something like that off now a days.
Nervous : rigged up a home brew impedance plethysmograph through chest cavity - geez the isolation better all be correct!!! There was some homework done on that deal I tell ya. Used 100 kHz few(?) mA gave nice heart waveform. Don't think I'd have the mental courage and certainty to pull something like that off now a days.
Reach
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Atglen, PA
@Shadowscape gave a good answer, but I feel like a term or two may have been included that not everyone might understand.
Generators are feared by those who work on or around lines because many are not installed properly, per electrical codes. Many people rig up their own cords to plug their Home Depot Special generator into the dryer outlet and use that outlet to push power back into the house, to power the whole house. It’s a lot cheaper to do that than to have an electrician install a transfer switch.
When you plug a generator in to your dryer outlet to power your house, you must turn your main breaker off, or the power you are pushing in to your house will be pushed back to the power company lines. The transformer out front that takes the high voltage line and turns it into 120/240 volts for your house will work backwards too, and power up the lines that were taken out by that fallen tree down the street, and those lines, which are clearly disconnected, are now live and can kill an unsuspecting lineman.
Hopefully that makes sense, please let me know if any part of it does not and I’ll clarify.
Also, I will plead with you to not use your dryer receptacle to power your house. There is a cheap way to set up your house to safely run off a generator, and any electrician can do it relatively (what’s a person’s life worth, anyway?) cheaply. Go to https://interlockkit.com/ and order the set you need, have it installed, and enjoy your new safe, legal, easy setup the next time your power goes out.
Reach
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Atglen, PA
I had the opportunity to tour the Safe Harbor Hydropower Plant years ago as a college student. They’ve had two fatalities there over the many years they’ve been operating. One was caused by an arc blast that occurred while two men were jacking in a new set of switchgear in one of the switching rooms. Something, still unknown, shorted and caused the arc blast. That blast was strong enough to put a horizontal crack over 20’ long in a concrete wall more than 2’ thick, and blow the two workers through a steel door and 200’ down a corridor.
The other, they call The Man in The Wall. The poor lost fool (he somehow got in the wrong switchgear room, through a locked door) with a metal vacuum cleaner wand and stuck it in a live breaker, which he probably thought was the dead one he was supposed to be cleaning. The arc blast was so hot, it melted the sand of the concrete wall into glass everywhere except where his body was pushed against the wall by the blast. His silhouette will forever be seated into that concrete, and I will never forget what that looked like.
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
No, we tend to be a bit more cautious as we age.
I was involved with propane explosions at a younger point in my life, and I sealed a room and flooded it with propane. Then I went in and lit a cigarette to prove a point that it would not blow up or catch fire to a class I was giving at the time. Propane UEL (Upper Explosive Limit) is 9.5% by volume, after that it does not explode.
Don't think I would do that these days. Besides, I quit smoke cigarettes 40 years ago..
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Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
The interlock you mentioned above can be bought at Amazon or any large hardware type store and only cost a few dollars.
I have one on my main breaker panel. I have an outdoor mounted receptacle that my generator plugs into that handles 50 amps. It is wired to a breaker on the main panel but cannot be flipped on unless the main 200 amp breaker has been turned off. Consists of a sliding metal tab. Simple and safe. If the main is on the generator breaker must be off, and vice versa. Easy, simple and safe.
Linemen are required to ground the primary line directly to the neutral, before and after the area they are working on. However, like all industries where workers are out in the field somewhat unsupervised, I have found that they sometimes do not follow the rules and only install the ground clamp on one side. One such fellow I saw doing that a few years ago has been recovering from multiple skin grafts that he has been going through for about three years now on account of his laziness. He happens to also be a friend of mine. I am going to wait a few more years before I say, "I told you so."
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
Perfect!
ghostice
Been here a while
These are the types of safety studies we used to do in Major Projects Group - they came out of the UK initially I think it was. Anyway O&G majors usually do them now for just the types of hazards in this thread. Operations and maintenance group found deficiencies even in manufactured equipment being spec'd out. FYI Cheers
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
I have seen many a high voltage lines down. They don't blow breakers like primary lines and remain hot until someone physically shuts them down. Can be fun to watch as they whip about and arc. Afterward you can see where they have turned asphalt roads and dirt into glass. Pretty cool stuff, electricity.
Reach
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Atglen, PA
I have never seen that, at least in person, but I know that high voltage can do that as the amount of current required to blow a fuse or trip a breaker is incredible.
Electricity really is cool, it’s truly amazing how it all works.
