It's Sooo Big.....

Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Topsoil is refered to as non-renewable because it takes 100-500+ years to make an inch of it. And that was back in the day when native grasslands existed.

I don't have an issue with removing a tree because it's too big. Slow growing small trees are a resonable recommendation for a small property. Unless you need one to climb, then bigger is always better.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Today a client was debating whether or not to take his tree down or prune it. He said he didn't have any need for it. Ummmmmmmmm..... what???
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Everyone has brought up a lot of good points in this thread. I fully agree that it is sad when I have to go to a job and remove an otherwise healthy tree that was just "inconvenient" for the homeowner in one way or another.

Even from a strict business perspective, you can make more money to feed/prune, feed/prune etc. for x number of years and then remove if/when necessary.

We could get into a lot of different topics relatively quickly, but I think the concept of the "modern mature tree" is one that is certainly changing. I love to see healthy mature trees. They all have a story, and they all have history. They aren't the trees in the cement islands in the mall parking lot, and they aren't the ones that they plant in a hurry in new housing developments (that usually die in a year anyway.) They are truly full grown mature trees of all species, and I think they are wonderful.

It's too bad they seem to be harder to find now. I wish I could find a link or something, but I read an article somewhere about wildfires, and how that changed oxygen production and CO2 consumption based on the loss of mature growth stands of trees.

The way they had it figured, if you lose a stand of mature trees with a given amount of biomass, and then replant and grow MORE trees (because they are obviously smaller), even after 10-15 years, the new trees produce less oxygen and consume less CO2 than the mature trees did. Even with the same or more biomass.

I never would have thought this, but I guess it makes sense. The mature trees have existing root structures, and can more efficiently do what they do best. Mature trees=better for us.

Just my thoughts. There is a time and place for removals of course. But that doesn't mean we should ignore proper stewardship, and our own future environment.

I will look for the article and If I find it, I will be sure to post it.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

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Today a client was debating whether or not to take his tree down or prune it. He said he didn't have any need for it. Ummmmmmmmm..... what???

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This is just the audience that the ISA need to get through to. What did the my teachers used to say to me? Oh ya, "Robert you have a brain now use it!"

It gets worse across the river in the city. People sometimes act as if the trees were after them. Their dirty, they interfere with parking, rats live in them. Any excuse not to want the trees. But they know the trees give them shade and beauty and fresh air. It wouldn't take much to sway the public to like trees and their benefits.

Ya, like Glen said, if only the message could be conveyed through their pockets just enough to reach their brains.
How could we get Obama to put it one of his State of the Union addresses? Something like, Oh ya people btw, trees are good for your health and do increase the value of the property.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

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Soil can not be replaced once its gone its gone, exhaustible... The earth/soil is the hardest working part of the ecosystem. It is a non-renewable resource.

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I totally disagree with the fact that soil is non-renewable. It is almost the opposite of non-renewable, it is a readable history of what happens on earth, and is renewing all the time, on both grand and small scales.

-Tom

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I think its still a valid point. Soil, like grasslands and forests are renewable and do it quite happily on their own. But the length of time to grow new soil, which is a biologically complex entity takes ages.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

That feed/prune/then remove could be equated to a mechanic doing unnessesary extra work on your vehicle or a painter using inferior paint so he could repaint sooner.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

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That feed/prune/then remove could be equated to a mechanic doing unnessesary extra work on your vehicle or a painter using inferior paint so he could repaint sooner.


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Very true. I should have been a little more specific. I certainly didn't want to say that you would grow it just to cut it off. But as long as the tree is there, there will always be work. Deadwooding and pruning for whatever specific purpose can certainly go along with a nutrient/pest/disease management program.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Ah yes, engage brain before operating mouth.....

and on that note I really can't get my thoughts to organize in a cohesive manner..... We'll get back to ya....
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

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They're dirty, they interfere with parking, rats live in them. Any excuse not to want the trees.

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Do we have a "Top Ten list for Reasons Property Owners Want Mature Trees Removed" on Tree Buzz anywhere?

1. Dropping fruit/sap/pollen/leaves.

2. Shading the turf grass

3. Blocking a view

4. Dead/Dying

5. Lifting foundation/driveway/sidewalk

6. Afraid it will fail and impact a valuable target

7. To clear for new construction

8. Roots in sewer lines

9. Overgrown/overcrowding landscape

What's 10?

Does anyone ask this question on a consistent basis and record the client's answers?
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting topic TH. I see this all the time here in Louisville. When I get an appointment, most times the note will say "large tree in front yard - prune or remove".

It seems in this market, people are willing to accept the idea that they might have to remove their tree just because it is large and close to the house. I don't think many tree guys in this area are doing a good job talking people out of this fear-based decision making.

Personally, I find it enjoyable and somewhat easy to find out that deep down the homeowner is hoping that the tree doesn't come down, and when I explain in simple terms what the tree is or isn't doing, the tree usually stays.

Any fool with a chainsaw and a thirst for beer money can say a tree has to come down. It's up to us professionals to keep them standing for future generations.


SZ

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Good post Stephan.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Don't think I'm a pathological tree killer. I do enjoy a good blast of wind coming off a huge flopper and climbing and rigging is what I do, more for fun rather than profit..

It just gets to a point where the money spent and the often useless or harmful treatments prescibed are doing more harm to the enviroment than the rotten tree is doing good. The ISA is hugely influenced by the large tree companies. That doesn't make their tree work for profit the most ethical. Just a profitable solution in a competitive market. In the crane section there's a post on moving trees with cranes. Cool, but how much diesel and manpower was burnt in the saving of those trees. I stick to the facts when it comes to removal decisions. If it's a nice tree in a nice spot I'll try every angle to save it, short of wasting money and time. Cut it down, plant a new one, too easy if it's not a nice tree.

It isn't just the actual work that impacts the enviroment, the money that pays the bill also comes with an impact. I'm actually quite a tree lover, (can't say I've hugged one though or believed they have brains), but I've planted over a million trees personally.

I just can't put that much value on an urban tree as I'm watching truck loads of logs rolling down the road and seeing the cut blocks the loggers leave behind. If it's for the enviroment the forests are what matters. And if there's a more efficient way to maintain the urban forest we need to talk about it not how to fleece the tree owners with some feelings they get from their tree in their yard. I know we're living in a wasteful world. Why not just go with it? How long will that last? Good for the economy always means bad for the enviroment.
 
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pretty good thread . I've taken down almost a hundred trees on the Main Line of Philly since Jan.2 ( maybe more )sounds like a lot but ( i hit it), like a spring winter . I don't ask and I don't care ( lil bit) . A tree removal isn't cheap , if a tree falls in a storm , unless it hits something covered (insurance) it's out of pocket . Damn right, it is too big , and there is no insurance for it either . It can cost the same amount to keep it or whack it . I know , I've pruned the same tree for twenty years and than the knife turned into a sword. Tree's and houses co exist at the homeowners expense . I'm a tree person and a homeowner with over a hundred trees ( big) . If that tree is over a hundred feet tall and your house is in the drop zone , that house will never be safe from that tree . NEVER.
I know the tree huggers with a rented apartment and no family are gonna get a rise , fact is trees and weather are unpredictable and whatever you think you know and whatever you tell some one can all just come apart in a half hour storm. I have a huge Poplar , full and hundred plus feet at my back door . I wanna hit it , but I like it . I had a 120 ft .Poplar fall ( July 2011)out of my woods and just clipped my gutter ( my 16 yr old was in the bathroom) and the tree fell. Good place to be sitting when that happened. I don't trust trees and I'd be lying to anyone telling them to trust them . Rock ,paper , scissors ,house ! Before you go off on this , remember , I'm the guy who brings an onion to the funeral , so I get that tear .
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

[ QUOTE ]
pretty good thread . I've taken down almost a hundred trees on the Main Line of Philly since Jan.2 ( maybe more )sounds like a lot but ( i hit it), like a spring winter . I don't ask and I don't care ( lil bit) . A tree removal isn't cheap , if a tree falls in a storm , unless it hits something covered (insurance) it's out of pocket . Damn right, it is too big , and there is no insurance for it either . It can cost the same amount to keep it or whack it . I know , I've pruned the same tree for twenty years and than the knife turned into a sword. Tree's and houses co exist at the homeowners expense . I'm a tree person and a homeowner with over a hundred trees ( big) . If that tree is over a hundred feet tall and your house is in the drop zone , that house will never be safe from that tree . NEVER.
I know the tree huggers with a rented apartment and no family are gonna get a rise , fact is trees and weather are unpredictable and whatever you think you know and whatever you tell some one can all just come apart in a half hour storm. I have a huge Poplar , full and hundred plus feet at my back door . I wanna hit it , but I like it . I had a 120 ft .Poplar fall ( July 2011)out of my woods and just clipped my gutter ( my 16 yr old was in the bathroom) and the tree fell. Good place to be sitting when that happened. I don't trust trees and I'd be lying to anyone telling them to trust them . Rock ,paper , scissors ,house ! Before you go off on this , remember , I'm the guy who brings an onion to the funeral , so I get that tear .

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Sometimes telling the truth makes you look like a total dick.

SZ
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Do we have a "Top Ten list for Reasons Property Owners Want Mature Trees Removed" on Tree Buzz anywhere?

1. Dropping fruit/sap/pollen/leaves. RAKE/BLOW/MOW/COMPOST/LARGE NATURAL AREA

2. Shading the turf grass REPLACE WITH MULCH/GROUNDCOVER, OR THIN THE TREE

3. Blocking a view REDUCE OR WINDOW-PRUNE THE TREE

4. Dead/Dying REDUCE FOR HABITAT OR REPLACE

5. Lifting foundation/driveway/sidewalk REPAIR/REPLACE PAVEMENT ABOVE ROOTS

6. Afraid it will fail and impact a valuable target REDUCE/SUPPORT TO MITIGATE RISK

7. To clear for new construction ADJUST THE PLAN TO ALLOW FOR ROOT SURVIVAL

8. Roots in sewer lines PRUNE ROOTS, PROTECT PIPE

9. Overgrown/overcrowding landscape REDUCE---DUH!-- OR PLANT MORE BIG TREES. (or let shrubs grow toward their God-given potential.) DUH!

What's 10? Can't sleep when windy? Nope, that repeats #6. Besides, repeating that scary stuff seems like prodding toward removalism.

Maintaining a tree that gets removed later has something in common with the mechanic scenario--we get to drive the car/enjoy the tree that much longer. Not an ethical question if the client is honestly informed; How much longer? Most of the prognoses I hear are typically in the 5-year area, and almost all ignore the roots and generate numbers pulled out of nether areas where good data is not to be found. BS, IOW.

Trees have the potential for immortality. Arborists can realize that potential.
santa.gif
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Immortality?

It just isn't so.

Trees are the result of millions of generations of natural selection.

The future belongs to trees that have yet to be born.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Providing clients with alternatives to tree removal is practicing ecologically sound arboriculture but the typical American property owner is psychologically more invested in their turf grass, their car, their home and their view. We have to reach them earlier in the process, before they ever call us, before they contemplate tree removal, maybe long before they become property owners.


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Good for the economy always means bad for the enviroment.

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We need an economic system that is not based on continuous growth. We cannot grow our way out of overpopulation, we cannot grow beyond the carrying capacity of our planet.

These are themes explored in Wessel's The Myth of Progress, a relevant book which Eric mentioned previously.
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

Depends on the view. 10', 100' 10,000' or 100,000' they are different. Looking at the high altitude sure it's the forests that matter. Then we step down a bit closer and see that the urban forests, though small and diffuse matter as well for the localized impact they have. At each level they have their pluses and minuses. I've taken down plenty big trees for the very reasons cited in the top ten however, it's not without some appraisal of the risks and rewards. What got me was the number of RFPs for removal of large trees for nothing more than a feeling of unease over the size and age.

I'm removing a tree in the near future due to the hazard assessment. We were asked to inspect the trees, mitigate if possible. Given the targets and defect it's a removal. No ISA/big tree co conspiracy or revenue driven motivation just honest evaluation of the situation. It was an open dialogue with the ho to come to the conclusion vs. "nope, I'm just afraid it'll fall on my house".
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

...and when a tree falls on your house , it makes a noise . Insurance companies want you to protect your house from water to your mortgage payment , act of god and your paycheck on your trees . Better hope it hits your house or your paying , 2012 , if you get enough estimates you might get someone to clean it up and pay you for doing it .
 
Re: It\'s Sooo Big.....

'What got me was the number of RFPs for removal of large trees for nothing more than a feeling of unease over the size and age. "

Yeah that gets me too. It's Post-Traumatic Arborphobia Syndrome (PTAD). This fear will recede, given time and information. Re immortality, "this" quote and paraphrase from Harvard University's Peter del Tredici:

Rejuvenation of a tree’s physiology slows down its aging clock. This is best seen in trees that grow on stressful environments, like mountaintops. Among trees, some adversity can promote longevity. Damage can enhance dignity. "Pruning does it by inducing the growth of meristems, shortening the internal transport path, and balancing shoot load and activity with limited root activity and support. In trees, physiological and developmental aging operate independently. They can be simultaneously embryonic and senile, resulting in a form of ecological immortality. It is this potential for immortality that makes trees so fascinating to work with."

More on this next month, in NJ--see you there!
 
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