I've been doing tree work for 20+ years.One of my first jobs was filling the bosses beer cooler on the bucket truck evry morning.I learned a LOT from him...both on what to do and what not to do.In the late '90's I started taking classes at ACRT to learn more.I also started chatting online with other tree guys to learn a little more....I remember chatting with another self-employed tree guy,by the name of Tom Dunlap,who was also trying to learn more.A few years ago I became an ISA Certified Arborist and a Certified Tree Worker/Climber Specialist...I'm also a Certified Aerial Lift Operator and Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer.I don't have a college degree in a tree related field.I am proud that I got the certifications I have,if nothing else to provide a better service for my customers.I have met college educated tree guys that couldn't do a removal if they didn't have a bag of false crotches and thing-a-ma-chigs.NO CERTIFICATION is the low bar.I do use my certifications in my advertising as I have EARNED them.Some custumers could care less about certification just as some could care less about insurance or experience.I know people who are not Certified Arborists who have probably forgotten more about trees than I will ever know.I got my certifications to be a better and safer tree worker.I have met some TERRIFIC and knowlegable people along the way and I'm glad I did it.I would recommend it to anyone along with going to a TCI expo if for nothing else to network and share ideas with others...
isa effectiveness
- Thread starter jweidman
- Start date
- Location
- Venice, FL
Wow. Interesting translation, "mr"tree. Totally skewed, but interesting.
Tree humper did you not say you that you a Humber grad? So what are you saying in your last post? College-educated arborist can't do the job, or just one specific person you met doing one job.
Once again we see the hatred of education in this industry. A tree climber is better than an educated egghead.
When are we going to stop asking for the government to regulate us and push for something better amongst ourselves. Stop talking about the minimum as though its the place to be, do something more.
Tree humper I am sure you can name the better tree companies in Toronto, have they in many cases not hired (Or owned by) people that teach at Humber. People who have done far more than accept the minimum.
If you stand at Bayview and Yorkmills on a May day you will count numerous tree and landscape companies passing by. Which ones are the acknowledged leaders? I bet the ones who have done more than just ISA certification.
Once again we see the hatred of education in this industry. A tree climber is better than an educated egghead.
When are we going to stop asking for the government to regulate us and push for something better amongst ourselves. Stop talking about the minimum as though its the place to be, do something more.
Tree humper I am sure you can name the better tree companies in Toronto, have they in many cases not hired (Or owned by) people that teach at Humber. People who have done far more than accept the minimum.
If you stand at Bayview and Yorkmills on a May day you will count numerous tree and landscape companies passing by. Which ones are the acknowledged leaders? I bet the ones who have done more than just ISA certification.
[ QUOTE ]
When I went to class to study for the exam you would not believe how many people were dumbfounded as to why I would want to get my certification when my husband is already certified. Why wouldn't I? It can only serve to improve me, our company, the services we provide to our customers. And down here, it RAISES the bar for all the other tree care companies.
[/ QUOTE ]
Congratulations, and inline with this thread ....
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=74936&page=3&fpart=all&vc=1
Where one particular member wrote ....
[ QUOTE ]
If their opinion is right, will all our wives have to get certified before they can answer the phone? That may not go over so well...and my kids would have a heck of a time on the cabling domain; I know I did.
[/ QUOTE ]
To which I responded ....
[ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't hurt for them to get certified would it?
It wouldn't be a disadvantage would it?
It would be preferable for many who rang up, wouldn't it?
I have worked in a few different roles and one was answering the phone for a verticle blind plastic componentry manf. I went out of my way to understand the injection moulding process, the part techs, the raw product materials, the UV ratings etc so when some-one called I had the answers not just took a message for some-one else.
Just today I had to ring for builders who know about leaking showers. The first 2 companies I rang I got bimbo's who wanted my details, some-one gonna call back bla bla bla ... I pissed them off and the third person i rang was a builder who specializes in bathrooms and subbies for some of the other mobs. Had a chat about the problem, asked questions, and now we know what is wrong and why and he'll come price it ... he's also a tiler so can do that. Questions asked were ... is tiling direct onto gyprock walls allowed? Some companies say no tile removal sealants guaranteed for 10 years ... will that work? And so on.
That's the difference.
So no right or wrong, just PREFERABLE!
[/ QUOTE ]
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round.
When I went to class to study for the exam you would not believe how many people were dumbfounded as to why I would want to get my certification when my husband is already certified. Why wouldn't I? It can only serve to improve me, our company, the services we provide to our customers. And down here, it RAISES the bar for all the other tree care companies.
[/ QUOTE ]
Congratulations, and inline with this thread ....
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=74936&page=3&fpart=all&vc=1
Where one particular member wrote ....
[ QUOTE ]
If their opinion is right, will all our wives have to get certified before they can answer the phone? That may not go over so well...and my kids would have a heck of a time on the cabling domain; I know I did.
[/ QUOTE ]
To which I responded ....
[ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't hurt for them to get certified would it?
It wouldn't be a disadvantage would it?
It would be preferable for many who rang up, wouldn't it?
I have worked in a few different roles and one was answering the phone for a verticle blind plastic componentry manf. I went out of my way to understand the injection moulding process, the part techs, the raw product materials, the UV ratings etc so when some-one called I had the answers not just took a message for some-one else.
Just today I had to ring for builders who know about leaking showers. The first 2 companies I rang I got bimbo's who wanted my details, some-one gonna call back bla bla bla ... I pissed them off and the third person i rang was a builder who specializes in bathrooms and subbies for some of the other mobs. Had a chat about the problem, asked questions, and now we know what is wrong and why and he'll come price it ... he's also a tiler so can do that. Questions asked were ... is tiling direct onto gyprock walls allowed? Some companies say no tile removal sealants guaranteed for 10 years ... will that work? And so on.
That's the difference.
So no right or wrong, just PREFERABLE!
[/ QUOTE ]
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[quote The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round.
[/ QUOTE ]Ane the painted ponies go up and down; we're captured on the carousel of time. (joni Mitchell)
do arborists have a hatred of education? none that I know. Arborists by definition study trees and tree care. Some fear it, until they check their egos at the classroom door and dive in. Then they see how it helps them grow.
Hey Eric didja see the Pink Floyd article on higher education in the lst TCI magazine? Viewable at www.tcia.org the goal on that one was to outline some easily accessible programs that field arbos can use as a steppingstone to the good stuff.
that and pay homage to Roger Waters...
[/ QUOTE ]Ane the painted ponies go up and down; we're captured on the carousel of time. (joni Mitchell)
do arborists have a hatred of education? none that I know. Arborists by definition study trees and tree care. Some fear it, until they check their egos at the classroom door and dive in. Then they see how it helps them grow.
Hey Eric didja see the Pink Floyd article on higher education in the lst TCI magazine? Viewable at www.tcia.org the goal on that one was to outline some easily accessible programs that field arbos can use as a steppingstone to the good stuff.
that and pay homage to Roger Waters...
- Location
- Titirangi, Auckland, NZ
Great post Kman, I have spent 17yrs climbing up the Arb ladder and ISA certification is one of those rungs, but their are many (and my analogy falls down since it isn't really a linear route as Shigo would say its rolling a snowball keeps flipping over and heading off in other direction.bless you Alex.)
Its a shame that we get caught up in kicking each others teeth over this and other much repeated topics, when in fact the different opinions are what make our profession vital.
I use so many examples of what can be done from the US experience when approaching LGA's here in Oz, continually bouncing off the magnificent work in Palo Alto, Connecticut, Florida, Sacramento, Texas (Please don't get mad if I've missed your area)...is ISA certification part of that? I think so, maybe not a big part but it is part of it. As others have said it often plays a role in drawing individuals into increasing their own development and with that developing our industry and profession at the same time.
Some of the most regulated and intensively benchmarked professions around (Medicine is a prime eg) still have trouble with people who fail the most basic test of ethical standards. There is no single process, procedure, or test that will solve such problems.
Should ISA be doing more, improving advancing? Yes of course, but ISA IS US, if we want change then we are the ones who need to our little bit to make it happen.
You in the US have achieved so many things in Arb that we are envious of here in OZ, and many of us over the lake are slowly making progress here with the aid of your experience good and bad. I see the ISA certification as just a part of that process.
Sean
Its a shame that we get caught up in kicking each others teeth over this and other much repeated topics, when in fact the different opinions are what make our profession vital.
I use so many examples of what can be done from the US experience when approaching LGA's here in Oz, continually bouncing off the magnificent work in Palo Alto, Connecticut, Florida, Sacramento, Texas (Please don't get mad if I've missed your area)...is ISA certification part of that? I think so, maybe not a big part but it is part of it. As others have said it often plays a role in drawing individuals into increasing their own development and with that developing our industry and profession at the same time.
Some of the most regulated and intensively benchmarked professions around (Medicine is a prime eg) still have trouble with people who fail the most basic test of ethical standards. There is no single process, procedure, or test that will solve such problems.
Should ISA be doing more, improving advancing? Yes of course, but ISA IS US, if we want change then we are the ones who need to our little bit to make it happen.
You in the US have achieved so many things in Arb that we are envious of here in OZ, and many of us over the lake are slowly making progress here with the aid of your experience good and bad. I see the ISA certification as just a part of that process.
Sean
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Mrtree, I graduated from the arborist apprenticeship. I am a firm believer in acquiring knowledge. How that may occur is up to the individual and what best suits them. Life experience, college, university, mentoring, private training thru associations.....
Actually it was 2 arborists I have worked with who, while college educated lacked the physical ability to do the job. The point being it takes more than an education to master this work.
I often work the Bayview/York Mills area and compete with a wide range of companies. Everything from the fly-by-night to the university educated, ISA certified. The leaders? Some have come to that position merely by the work they do others by rising to the highest level of certification from the ISA and the CE that is offered. Yes, ISA certification is a first step and is recognized as such thus the need to continually learn.
We have the ASWP as defined by the industry. Unfortunately, the government does the policing thru the Ministry of Labour under the OHSA. That is the reality.
Those that taught at Humber have in the main committed to continued learning thru all the channels. None have ever disparaged the fundamental ISA certification.
Noone here is saying stand on your laurels.
Actually it was 2 arborists I have worked with who, while college educated lacked the physical ability to do the job. The point being it takes more than an education to master this work.
I often work the Bayview/York Mills area and compete with a wide range of companies. Everything from the fly-by-night to the university educated, ISA certified. The leaders? Some have come to that position merely by the work they do others by rising to the highest level of certification from the ISA and the CE that is offered. Yes, ISA certification is a first step and is recognized as such thus the need to continually learn.
We have the ASWP as defined by the industry. Unfortunately, the government does the policing thru the Ministry of Labour under the OHSA. That is the reality.
Those that taught at Humber have in the main committed to continued learning thru all the channels. None have ever disparaged the fundamental ISA certification.
Noone here is saying stand on your laurels.
mrtree it's fair enough to want to improve the industry but is it really necessary to insult those people who struggled hard and are proud to have passed the certification exam by telling them that "ISA certification is a joke. Any idiot can pass this test" and that passing this test should qualify you for nothing?
And then tell other people not to pass judgement on you and follow up with I think you should reread the posts and apologize for you ignorance. The first belittling comment is from you. Which is pretty funny, really, reading your first "contribution" to this thread. I wasn't sure if you were making a sutble joke with this, though: There is some nuiance and subility involved in what I have said.
Some more knee-slappers:
I can guarantee I have far more to contribute than you...
You belittle everybody who wants more for the industry
and then,Once again we see the hatred of education in this industry is your response to people who have made an effort in getting educated that you feel is not enough. I mean, who in the hell is expressing hatred of education here?
And really, how are you a helpful, useful person in our industry, again?
And then tell other people not to pass judgement on you and follow up with I think you should reread the posts and apologize for you ignorance. The first belittling comment is from you. Which is pretty funny, really, reading your first "contribution" to this thread. I wasn't sure if you were making a sutble joke with this, though: There is some nuiance and subility involved in what I have said.
Some more knee-slappers:
I can guarantee I have far more to contribute than you...
You belittle everybody who wants more for the industry
and then,Once again we see the hatred of education in this industry is your response to people who have made an effort in getting educated that you feel is not enough. I mean, who in the hell is expressing hatred of education here?
And really, how are you a helpful, useful person in our industry, again?
trees4est pretty much what I expected as an answer from a you. Read the post and try to use you brain, if you can. The entire point is that ISA cerification is the low end, not that you you should be embarrased that you passed the test, you should be embarrased if you want to call yourself an arborist and this is what you bandy about as your sole qualification.
There are load (maybe the majority?) of tree workers who have no qualifications, many who have ISA certification, and a smaller number who have done more. Part of the arguement is that you should do more.
There are a number of comments in this thread and elsewhere which clearly shows an underlying hatred of education and educated people.
"Nothing against higher education... think it is Top priority - but on the other hand have seen "highly educated" people who do not have a clue about tree structure. May know their trees and insects... but when it comes to proper trimming and cabling techniques - do not have a clue".
This little comment essentially says if you are not a tree climber you are not an arborist and education does not mean anything to the job.
I have actually seen a commnent that if you can't climb you are not an arborist and you should have no standing in the industry. The comments then continued on that well yes Alex Shigo knows trees but ....
Enough of this thread, it pretty much shows what I figured it would. Stirred up a few reactionaries as I hoped. The industry is populated with trogoldytes and others that would rather talk about my attitude than the actual problem with certification.
There are load (maybe the majority?) of tree workers who have no qualifications, many who have ISA certification, and a smaller number who have done more. Part of the arguement is that you should do more.
There are a number of comments in this thread and elsewhere which clearly shows an underlying hatred of education and educated people.
"Nothing against higher education... think it is Top priority - but on the other hand have seen "highly educated" people who do not have a clue about tree structure. May know their trees and insects... but when it comes to proper trimming and cabling techniques - do not have a clue".
This little comment essentially says if you are not a tree climber you are not an arborist and education does not mean anything to the job.
I have actually seen a commnent that if you can't climb you are not an arborist and you should have no standing in the industry. The comments then continued on that well yes Alex Shigo knows trees but ....
Enough of this thread, it pretty much shows what I figured it would. Stirred up a few reactionaries as I hoped. The industry is populated with trogoldytes and others that would rather talk about my attitude than the actual problem with certification.
- Location
- Titirangi, Auckland, NZ
mrtree, if your main intention was merely "to stir up a few reactionaries" then thats a shame, I was rather hoping that contributions would be aimed at moving us all forward (if only slightly) by examining what pros and cons we feel Certification might have, and perhaps suggesting in what way we might make improvements?
Now stirring up the hornets nest was not the main intention, it just happens every time I suggest ISA certified arborist is a minimal qualification. It happens on web boards, at ISA meetings and in individual conversation.
This thread started by asking
"For anyone who has taken and passed the isa certification,how much of an effect has it had on your buisness as far as selling work.and how have you incorporated it into your sales"
The answer should be ISA certification along with Liability Insurance and Workers Insurance is the starting point any company should have. We then use our specializied knowledge, training, education etc. to do the best job possible (that others cannot do).
Specialized trainingmay be be Arbormaster classes, reading, full term insect/disease courses etc.
I find it incredible that ISA certification is preached as what you need in an arborist/tree service when we should be preaching alot more. Doctors are an obvious case, people have learned you have generallists and specialists. Very seldom that I have seen does a specialist get referred in the tree world. It seems very much that ISA certification encourages people to act as consultants giving oponion beyond their scope of knowledge..
As for making improvements, how about a harder, longer test. How about not having the bulk of the exam correspond to the study guide. How about making CEUs, particularly some that can be had in Arborist News, harder. How about making many CEUs about learning and involvement. A harder task is to determine comprehension, not the ability to write a multiple choice test. This is where colleges/universities and ASCA come in. I am sure in Britian at least there are multiple year courses, but I really only know about North America.
The other point is to have the bulk of the 18,500 credential holders improve themselves through a wide range of activities. Standing pat is not the way to go.
Of course the other thing of importance is to bring the yahoos and weekend warrior tree services to account for their work. This is partly an ISA mandate but really something for things such as Labour Boards etc. to work on. We can also encourage our competitors to do better.
This thread started by asking
"For anyone who has taken and passed the isa certification,how much of an effect has it had on your buisness as far as selling work.and how have you incorporated it into your sales"
The answer should be ISA certification along with Liability Insurance and Workers Insurance is the starting point any company should have. We then use our specializied knowledge, training, education etc. to do the best job possible (that others cannot do).
Specialized trainingmay be be Arbormaster classes, reading, full term insect/disease courses etc.
I find it incredible that ISA certification is preached as what you need in an arborist/tree service when we should be preaching alot more. Doctors are an obvious case, people have learned you have generallists and specialists. Very seldom that I have seen does a specialist get referred in the tree world. It seems very much that ISA certification encourages people to act as consultants giving oponion beyond their scope of knowledge..
As for making improvements, how about a harder, longer test. How about not having the bulk of the exam correspond to the study guide. How about making CEUs, particularly some that can be had in Arborist News, harder. How about making many CEUs about learning and involvement. A harder task is to determine comprehension, not the ability to write a multiple choice test. This is where colleges/universities and ASCA come in. I am sure in Britian at least there are multiple year courses, but I really only know about North America.
The other point is to have the bulk of the 18,500 credential holders improve themselves through a wide range of activities. Standing pat is not the way to go.
Of course the other thing of importance is to bring the yahoos and weekend warrior tree services to account for their work. This is partly an ISA mandate but really something for things such as Labour Boards etc. to work on. We can also encourage our competitors to do better.
Hey MTCinc thought I would post the private message you sent
"Your just another loser hiding behind a computer screen... Use this forum like you would as if you were face o face with another human. I invite you and your shallow comments to the ISA Conference in Hawaii this year... You can share your rants in person, to all the great ISA Certified Arborists that will be attending.
Your a pathetic excuse for a human."
I think this pretty much proves the type of human (?) being you are. Thanks for you well thought out response. Your parents must be very proud.
Is there anybody else that wants to make vieled threats and open insults?
"Your just another loser hiding behind a computer screen... Use this forum like you would as if you were face o face with another human. I invite you and your shallow comments to the ISA Conference in Hawaii this year... You can share your rants in person, to all the great ISA Certified Arborists that will be attending.
Your a pathetic excuse for a human."
I think this pretty much proves the type of human (?) being you are. Thanks for you well thought out response. Your parents must be very proud.
Is there anybody else that wants to make vieled threats and open insults?
- Location
- Titirangi, Auckland, NZ
I don't disagree with the points you've made particularly the one about consultants giving opinion beyond their scope of knowledge (I'm sure I've been guilty of that myself), but would say that perhaps in being an International Society and wanting to set up and maintain an international certification creates many problems when it comes to achieving greater specification.
The differences that exist between climates, species, legislation and regulations make anything beyond the broad generalities in the study guide and exam very difficult to concieve for the only certification at an international level.
For sure it could be a lot harder, much more demanding of those sitting the exam, but surely as the first step into any kind of recognised path of study and knowledge building in our industry the certification is never going to be able to meet the kind of demands you are setting for it?
Aren't you asking for another layer to certification, another level, because I'd think you'd get a lot more support from other Arb people approaching it from that angle.
The differences that exist between climates, species, legislation and regulations make anything beyond the broad generalities in the study guide and exam very difficult to concieve for the only certification at an international level.
For sure it could be a lot harder, much more demanding of those sitting the exam, but surely as the first step into any kind of recognised path of study and knowledge building in our industry the certification is never going to be able to meet the kind of demands you are setting for it?
Aren't you asking for another layer to certification, another level, because I'd think you'd get a lot more support from other Arb people approaching it from that angle.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
What does 'private' mean?
You have sure been loud in how you are presenting your case. Beating and bashing on people sure isn't going to gain allies.
You mentioned a 100 question Certification test. It's been years since I took the CArborist or CTreeWorkere test but I remember the CS being 300 questions and the CTW being 100 questions. Which test did you take? The two Certifications are much different.
This forum is what would be considered The Choir. If the system is broken take the time to get involved and change the system.
You have sure been loud in how you are presenting your case. Beating and bashing on people sure isn't going to gain allies.
You mentioned a 100 question Certification test. It's been years since I took the CArborist or CTreeWorkere test but I remember the CS being 300 questions and the CTW being 100 questions. Which test did you take? The two Certifications are much different.
This forum is what would be considered The Choir. If the system is broken take the time to get involved and change the system.
Tom under MY HOME there is a a place to receive private messages that is where MTCinc's message is from.
As for getting involved, it seems that ISA does not want this. My experience is that when questions are asked the answer is what you are suggesting is too big, unworkable, not necessary. The worst is when I am told that ISA certifaction is really only to raise the bar a little. BCMA and other certs are one of the response that have been made.
Really I not all that interested in getting more involved with ISA certification. Other things to do that I consider higher on the priority list. I took the test decade or more ago and have done (prep) work shops over the years.
As for getting involved, it seems that ISA does not want this. My experience is that when questions are asked the answer is what you are suggesting is too big, unworkable, not necessary. The worst is when I am told that ISA certifaction is really only to raise the bar a little. BCMA and other certs are one of the response that have been made.
Really I not all that interested in getting more involved with ISA certification. Other things to do that I consider higher on the priority list. I took the test decade or more ago and have done (prep) work shops over the years.
- Location
- Titirangi, Auckland, NZ
You're corect Tom the CA test is 300 questions, but I think mrtree would stick to his arguement that the multiple choice nature of the test and the similarity between the exam questions and the study guide practice questions devalues the test as a whole.
Personally I disagree with the thrust of his arguement for the reasons previously made.
Personally I disagree with the thrust of his arguement for the reasons previously made.
- Location
- Titirangi, Auckland, NZ
Yes they could be rewritten, but you would still have exactly the same issues relating to problems of any standardised test reflecting a VERY broad range of disciplines across many VERY different continents. I know tree biology is tree biology whether you're in US UK or Oz but I can assure you once you get into anything beyond the general things are very different. My point again is that in trying to have an entry level test that will work internationally, ISA is hamstrung to a significant degree.
I'll repeat that if we want to make changes in the way ISA operates (at any level) then we have to do the work because we make up what ISA is.
I'll repeat that if we want to make changes in the way ISA operates (at any level) then we have to do the work because we make up what ISA is.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
[ QUOTE ]
Now stirring up the hornets nest was not the main intention, it just happens every time I suggest ISA certified arborist is a minimal qualification. It happens on web boards, at ISA meetings and in individual conversation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then i guess you need to take a hard look at the way in which you state your case. If you keep getting the same response then maybe it's your approach. You start by insulting a group of people who have worked hard to get to where they are and continue to improve themselves through education of a variety of types. Clarify your main point without the insulting tone or inference.
[ QUOTE ]
This thread started by asking
"For anyone who has taken and passed the isa certification,how much of an effect has it had on your buisness as far as selling work.and how have you incorporated it into your sales"
The answer should be ISA certification along with Liability Insurance and Workers Insurance is the starting point any company should have. We then use our specializied knowledge, training, education etc. to do the best job possible (that others cannot do).
[/ QUOTE ]
The answer you posit doesn't answer the question but goes tangently along another line. The question posed only asks about ISA certification and it's effect on selling work. It may be that the author has liability and workers' insurance along with specialized knowledge, training, education, etc., and is looking for a competitive edge. Now mind you had you answered it like this yourself then you may have got a much more positive reception and opened the dialogue you hoped for.
[ QUOTE ]
specialized trainingmay be be Arbormaster classes, reading, full term insect/disease courses etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which if you asked you may find that many here have taken such courses to go beyond there basic certification and if only to fulfill the requirement to maintain the certification under the certification rules.
[ QUOTE ]
I find it incredible that ISA certification is preached as what you need in an arborist/tree service when we should be preaching alot more. Doctors are an obvious case, people have learned you have generallists and specialists. Very seldom that I have seen does a specialist get referred in the tree world. It seems very much that ISA certification encourages people to act as consultants giving oponion beyond their scope of knowledge..
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it is the entry level. Every 3 years one must obtained a minimum of a certain number of CEUs. Like doctors though one can stay at this generalist level. I have worked with specialists who because of their ongoing learning have moved well beyond the ISA certification level. There's just not a whack of letters to place after their name to show this and they don't work in the mainstream of arboriculture but in direct connection with those that would use their services. No referral is necessary.
[ QUOTE ]
As for making improvements, how about a harder, longer test. How about not having the bulk of the exam correspond to the study guide. How about making CEUs, particularly some that can be had in Arborist News, harder. How about making many CEUs about learning and involvement. A harder task is to determine comprehension, not the ability to write a multiple choice test. This is where colleges/universities and ASCA come in. I am sure in Britian at least there are multiple year courses, but I really only know about North America.
[/ QUOTE ]
CEUs in every industry can be obtained relatively easily. I've been involved with many different professions and have seen how these same professionals chase CEUs for the sole purpose of maintaining their certs vs. actually acquiring knowledge. They are content with the level of business they are involved with.
Take a look at the ISA site regarding CEUs, http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/ceus.aspx. I think that it does encourage the type of learning you are talking about.
Look at this in the same way as engineering. Take electrical engineering and you see that it really begins with the basic electrician (apprenticeship) and rises thru the electrical engineering technician (2 yr college), technologist (3-4 yr college) to the engineer (4 yr university +). Depending on the individual they can chose the level which is best suited to them. This is no different then our industry. I get the feeling you only see or are exposed to the most obvious portion of the field, tree services.
[ QUOTE ]
The other point is to have the bulk of the 18,500 credential holders improve themselves through a wide range of activities. Standing pat is not the way to go.
[/ QUOTE ]
ISA does through the levels of certification with the "Board certified master arborist" being the top and CEU requirements every 3 yrs.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course the other thing of importance is to bring the yahoos and weekend warrior tree services to account for their work. This is partly an ISA mandate but really something for things such as Labour Boards etc. to work on. We can also encourage our competitors to do better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again there are yahoos and weekend warriors in every trade because of economic demand for cheap services. ISA is mandated but as yet doesn't have the legal ability to stop them from plying their trade. All they can do is provide a program that helps differentiate and encourages professional development. Calling for the labour board to police our industry? Hmmmmm, I do believe you looked down on that in an earlier post. However, that is the only way it can be done. But, like littering and illegal dumping not an easy or cheap task. The ISA is the means to encourage the betterment of our competitors. Like any professional association it works within the realities of the market to achieve it's mission; "Through research, technology, and education promote the professional practice of arboriculture and foster a greater public awareness of the benefits of trees."
The green industry is a fast growing and relatively young industry of which we are a specialized part of. We are a fledgling industry that the consuming public is only really becoming more aware of. It will take time as it did in the medical field for people to realize that they need a specialist beyond the basic arborist and we can actually make money by referring them to such a specialist.
Hey, Mrtree there ya go, you could become an arboricultural consultant who charges for doing the initial assessment of a client's needs then refers them to a specialist who will then deal with them at the level only within the realm of their expertise. "Yes, Mrs. Treeowner you have wind damage, I'll refer you to a tree pruning specialist."
Now stirring up the hornets nest was not the main intention, it just happens every time I suggest ISA certified arborist is a minimal qualification. It happens on web boards, at ISA meetings and in individual conversation.
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Then i guess you need to take a hard look at the way in which you state your case. If you keep getting the same response then maybe it's your approach. You start by insulting a group of people who have worked hard to get to where they are and continue to improve themselves through education of a variety of types. Clarify your main point without the insulting tone or inference.
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This thread started by asking
"For anyone who has taken and passed the isa certification,how much of an effect has it had on your buisness as far as selling work.and how have you incorporated it into your sales"
The answer should be ISA certification along with Liability Insurance and Workers Insurance is the starting point any company should have. We then use our specializied knowledge, training, education etc. to do the best job possible (that others cannot do).
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The answer you posit doesn't answer the question but goes tangently along another line. The question posed only asks about ISA certification and it's effect on selling work. It may be that the author has liability and workers' insurance along with specialized knowledge, training, education, etc., and is looking for a competitive edge. Now mind you had you answered it like this yourself then you may have got a much more positive reception and opened the dialogue you hoped for.
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specialized trainingmay be be Arbormaster classes, reading, full term insect/disease courses etc.
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Which if you asked you may find that many here have taken such courses to go beyond there basic certification and if only to fulfill the requirement to maintain the certification under the certification rules.
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I find it incredible that ISA certification is preached as what you need in an arborist/tree service when we should be preaching alot more. Doctors are an obvious case, people have learned you have generallists and specialists. Very seldom that I have seen does a specialist get referred in the tree world. It seems very much that ISA certification encourages people to act as consultants giving oponion beyond their scope of knowledge..
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Actually it is the entry level. Every 3 years one must obtained a minimum of a certain number of CEUs. Like doctors though one can stay at this generalist level. I have worked with specialists who because of their ongoing learning have moved well beyond the ISA certification level. There's just not a whack of letters to place after their name to show this and they don't work in the mainstream of arboriculture but in direct connection with those that would use their services. No referral is necessary.
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As for making improvements, how about a harder, longer test. How about not having the bulk of the exam correspond to the study guide. How about making CEUs, particularly some that can be had in Arborist News, harder. How about making many CEUs about learning and involvement. A harder task is to determine comprehension, not the ability to write a multiple choice test. This is where colleges/universities and ASCA come in. I am sure in Britian at least there are multiple year courses, but I really only know about North America.
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CEUs in every industry can be obtained relatively easily. I've been involved with many different professions and have seen how these same professionals chase CEUs for the sole purpose of maintaining their certs vs. actually acquiring knowledge. They are content with the level of business they are involved with.
Take a look at the ISA site regarding CEUs, http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/ceus.aspx. I think that it does encourage the type of learning you are talking about.
Look at this in the same way as engineering. Take electrical engineering and you see that it really begins with the basic electrician (apprenticeship) and rises thru the electrical engineering technician (2 yr college), technologist (3-4 yr college) to the engineer (4 yr university +). Depending on the individual they can chose the level which is best suited to them. This is no different then our industry. I get the feeling you only see or are exposed to the most obvious portion of the field, tree services.
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The other point is to have the bulk of the 18,500 credential holders improve themselves through a wide range of activities. Standing pat is not the way to go.
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ISA does through the levels of certification with the "Board certified master arborist" being the top and CEU requirements every 3 yrs.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course the other thing of importance is to bring the yahoos and weekend warrior tree services to account for their work. This is partly an ISA mandate but really something for things such as Labour Boards etc. to work on. We can also encourage our competitors to do better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again there are yahoos and weekend warriors in every trade because of economic demand for cheap services. ISA is mandated but as yet doesn't have the legal ability to stop them from plying their trade. All they can do is provide a program that helps differentiate and encourages professional development. Calling for the labour board to police our industry? Hmmmmm, I do believe you looked down on that in an earlier post. However, that is the only way it can be done. But, like littering and illegal dumping not an easy or cheap task. The ISA is the means to encourage the betterment of our competitors. Like any professional association it works within the realities of the market to achieve it's mission; "Through research, technology, and education promote the professional practice of arboriculture and foster a greater public awareness of the benefits of trees."
The green industry is a fast growing and relatively young industry of which we are a specialized part of. We are a fledgling industry that the consuming public is only really becoming more aware of. It will take time as it did in the medical field for people to realize that they need a specialist beyond the basic arborist and we can actually make money by referring them to such a specialist.
Hey, Mrtree there ya go, you could become an arboricultural consultant who charges for doing the initial assessment of a client's needs then refers them to a specialist who will then deal with them at the level only within the realm of their expertise. "Yes, Mrs. Treeowner you have wind damage, I'll refer you to a tree pruning specialist."
I think Sean Freeman makes a very good point about the international nature of ISA and attempting to have one certification for all. MAybe each Country or state needs to regulate.
That being said in Ontario you can be an ISA certified arborist (treeworker etc.), OTAB arborist, ASCA member, ASCA RCA, college graduated arborist (in at least three different courses), university graduated forester, RPF, and Hydro forester. There are probably a few more I can't think of. It is no at all clear how one relates to another or what is required to do certain jobs.
My suggestion that the Labour Board has a lead role is because they have legislated powers. They should be the one who improve the profession by nailing the companies with no training. My this I mean start with companies who have no PPE, no safety standards, dangerous equipment. Beyond that I know they are not going to distinguish between groups.
I don't believe another level of certification is necessary, but rather a realization of what each level prepares you to do. Also individual certifications could be changed or made more rigourous.
Perhaps the best example of where certification must be applied and absolutely understood is working near live hydro. Extensive training and certification should be mandatory, enforced and called for by workers.
That being said in Ontario you can be an ISA certified arborist (treeworker etc.), OTAB arborist, ASCA member, ASCA RCA, college graduated arborist (in at least three different courses), university graduated forester, RPF, and Hydro forester. There are probably a few more I can't think of. It is no at all clear how one relates to another or what is required to do certain jobs.
My suggestion that the Labour Board has a lead role is because they have legislated powers. They should be the one who improve the profession by nailing the companies with no training. My this I mean start with companies who have no PPE, no safety standards, dangerous equipment. Beyond that I know they are not going to distinguish between groups.
I don't believe another level of certification is necessary, but rather a realization of what each level prepares you to do. Also individual certifications could be changed or made more rigourous.
Perhaps the best example of where certification must be applied and absolutely understood is working near live hydro. Extensive training and certification should be mandatory, enforced and called for by workers.
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KBNest -Midline Attachable SRS Canopy Anchor.
- Started by TreeSteward
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