ISA Code of Ethics

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Tom, what is a hazard tree?

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Guy, you are kidding, right? Let's not get bogged down with semantics RE my explanation. Let's use 'hazard tree' as a positive hypothetical for the sake of argument. We can argue what constitutes a true hazard at some other point. ¿Si?

-Tom
 
Well, after a phone call to the ISA, I'm in the position of approving the rules, but not liking the way they've been written. We were told that , for CA's, they don't care about parking tickets, murder charges, or anything else that doesn't relate to arboriculture. Only crimes that might have a bearing on the work directly. I'm okay with that, but the paper I have to sign says I will report any occasion of being accused of a crime or quasi-crime.

A) what the hell is a "quasi-crime"?
B) this is not what the written standard says.

I guess I'm about to sign off and mail my check, since my cert is due for renewal, but I am adamant in my belief that they need to rewrite the code to reflect what we were told on the phone.

Incidentally, they said the story changes for BCMA. I wasn't on the phone, but I gather any crime might disqualify you for BCMA (I assume traffic tickets are still okay).

I want to see a revision before I sign.
 
Also, I wonder if theft meets the criteria for inclusion. Certainly it does not have a direct bearing on the work, but I've often noticed things while working on trees (and roofs) that would have allowed me to rip my clients off if I were so inclined. Again, I really want to see this whole thing clarified and explained.

For the record, I do not have a criminal history, but times are tough and you never know what might happen. More ACLU liberalism for you right-wingers to attack me on.
 
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It does not mandate that they report the CA or candidate, it states that if they do so, it should be backed up with facts

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Read down alittle farther, says if you don't report you yourself are in violation of the code of ethic.
 
Jomoco,

All of our Vermeers have safety mechanisms designed to prevent chipper fatalities.

By the way, ISA and TCIA do not mandate anything. They have no real police power. Instead, they cooperate with industry.

Convince OSHA if you want industry to change.
 
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All those other states certifications have little use out this way

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Maybe not, but a state cert is still better than any self proclaimed club paper.

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I see you flaunting that 60% number. Wouldn't know. My scores were in the upper percentages. Actually, I don't know any 60%-ers myself.


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Yes yes I know everyone I talk to, that is a CA, scored in the top.
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You tend to talk about the low numbers, hacks and problems. Maybe that's why you wouldn't talk about that certificate. You don't know how to sell it, promote it, or use it.


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No I talk about the majority of CA's, really do yourself a favor and have a chat with all the Super company sales reps. Sell it! Sell what? I could sell my dirty underwear to Miss Jones if I really wanted too. I sold and promoted, a drunk for 8 years just ask my wife. Funny how cheap a tree is when you have beer goggles on.
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I'm not going to take the foolish approach in life to degrade something because others degrade it.

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Nobody is degrading your potty paper. I'd just prefer to see a gov or fed state by state lic maybe somthing on the lines like a plumer needs to work. This would at least put any and all on the same page or level.

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But I'm glad I've got my CA certificate. It's a valuable tool that brings a lot of valuable work

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As you should be, since there is no state lic or certs. What do you have out there some contractors thing you have to get? Does that mean you can cut trees, biuld decks, dig a hole?
 
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Jomoco,

All of our Vermeers have safety mechanisms designed to prevent chipper fatalities.

By the way, ISA and TCIA do not mandate anything. They have no real police power. Instead, they cooperate with industry.

Convince OSHA if you want industry to change.

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Oh really?

Will any of those safety devices keep an incapacitated chipper operator from being eaten alive like mather's and my safety gates do?

I didn't think so.

Don't think I haven't been contacted by OSHA or the NIOSH FACE officials because I have.

It just ticks me off that I end up burdened with the ISA and TCIA's job of making our industry safer for the average grunt chipper operators.

jomoco
 
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Can we please start a new thread on chipper safety & regulations thereof?

THANKS!!!

-Tom

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I gather you find the subject of ISA ethics, or lack thereof distasteful when it applies to groundworkers getting chipped on the job Tom?

Very well, it is a rather gruesome aspect of our industry that apparently lots of folks find distasteful.

So be it then.

jomoco
 
jomoco, you can't fix stupid. You can't regulate it away.

The only cure for stupid is dead, and that's exactly what happens.
 
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Can we please start a new thread on chipper safety & regulations thereof?

THANKS!!!

-Tom

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He said it's "skyrocketing" earlier.

Maybe one thread on chippers, and another on regulations. Or did you mean regulations for chippers?

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Mdvaden, you'll notice I inserted the word 'thereof' when referring to regulations.
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Jomoco, no disrespect to the subject whatsoever, but this thread is/was about the ISA CoE and the new Ethics Agreement. Chipper safety and regs is really a different subject altogether.

-Tom
 
I don't know what chipper safety has to do with the ISA certifications, obviously the ISA has no control over chipper manufacture. I know you feel strongly about that topic, Jomoco, because you are trying to change it, but this is about the code of ethics that CA's are supposed to agree to as part of their certification agreement. I was also surprised at your disdain for CA's who can't even climb a tree. Some of the smartest, most professional researchers and consulting arborists I know have never climbed a tree. Some of them are too big, too old, not physically capable of climbing a tree, but know more about trees than I could ever hope to.

I agree that the code of ethics should be made more specific about all the points above, so that we as certificate holders can decide whether we wish to follow that code, and know what exactly is expected of us. For right now, it is a fuzzy line, and I will treat it as such. My certification is valuable to me and my company, in that it is the only certification that the general public recognizes. This is the entire reason that all of my crew members and I are certified, to market ourselves to future customers, or even future employers.
 
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Well, after a phone call to the ISA, ....We were told that , for CA's, they don't care about parking tickets, murder charges, or anything else that doesn't relate to arboriculture.

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Thanks for putting in the effort to contact the ISA on that question. It's what I expected, agree that they need to improve the wording to clarify.
-moss
 
I totally egree Noel,my certification is very valuable.one of my employees is a ca and another is a certified tree worker and it really helps marketing ourselves as professionals.I sure hope they revise this code because it woould be a shame to walk away.Its just about principal in my own life and i cannot compromise that.I actually try to be the best arborist I can daily and alot of times it cost me jobs.I walk away from many jobs that just dont need anything.I try not to sale stuff the trees just dont need.I still put off all my oaks until the right season for our area(well except for a hazard situations.Even when most recommend sealing oak cuts 2" and larger,I try and seal every scratch(yes even shigo finally came around on this).But i am not here to police the industry and try and find factual evidence for the isa.Alot of times I meet with other companys to talk,show new trick or even lend a hand.I see violation at every job site ive been on.I usually say something but really try to set and example for them to follow.Sometimes the owners are friends of mine and I will give them a call and try to educate and encourage them in what areas they may be missing the boat on.Ive develope trust that i refuse to break.I really try hard to educate the potential client so they can effectively see the difference in the way we operate and maybe a ca who is not as professional.Its really should give the ISA a little bit of a jolt to see organizations like craigs list or even angies list to just how they have grown so quickly.I know they are totally different organizations but maybe some lessons could be learned from there rapid popularity.How long has the ISA been in existence a long time.Long enough to enfluence local govenrment to have regulations and guidelines in place.I just think they need to refocus on whats important I dont need to be impressed by a 300.00 a night hotel at the conference.You know what would impress me -if they influence fort worth to have a local arborist exam and show proof of insurance to practice arborculture in the city.Im busy trying to build a buisness and fight off all the guys who have no insurance no certs and no idea of what they are doing.If you force those guys to get educated and get insurance then it becomes a level playing field.But a private orginazation cannot do that,But they could influence local government to do it.I guess they gotta let go of the reigns a little of trying to control the whole arborculture industry.Especially the certification side, come on trade mark the term certified arborist-you gotta be kidding me.Its obvious they need help,but pitting arborist against one another is not the answer,that would only divide the industry more.
 
Just a thought here, Jimmy, but if every tree crew in your area had Certified Arborists and followed all the professional guidelines, you would be just the same as all of them. Then how would you stand out as the best, or most professional, or highest value of them all? Here in Springfield, there is a push to make all licensed tree services have at least one CA as a requirement of their city license. I have not really gotten behind this, because I know that that would make it where ALL the companies in town could claim to have a CA on staff, even the ones that "subcontract" a CA, or the ones that get someone to pass the test and keep doing the hack work they have always done. Of course I want to see the trees in my town taken care of properly, regardless of who does it, but the certifications my crew has is what sets us apart from the others, allowing us to charge premium prices for the very best service in town. The public usually doesn't know whether their trees have been pruned correctly, so they count on credentials and referrals to help them make their decisions on who will do their work. Just my $.o2
 
Why does one company have to stand out as the best?

It's not realistic, but I'd be glad to be in a city where every tree company and worker was the best and a great value.

If all the physicians here, for example, had medical licenses, I wouldn't care if any were the best, if all of them were really good and qualified.

With trees though, it's certain that for a long time there will be a wide gap between the most qualified and least qualified.

I think that one of the biggest causes is that too few homeowners ask enough of the right questions and screen the companies properly. It's sort of like why we have beggars by the road. They are there because people pay them money. Seems that way with tree care. Why do we seem to have too many hacks? Because enough people are paying them - the tree beggers.

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