ISA Code of Ethics

I took a look at the code of ethics document. Item #7 is the most vague. "Refrain" sounds like a request to be "good" not a prohibition. Another poster hinted at the kind of legal issues that would be of concern outside of professional/business practice ethics. That would be "moral" violations (rape, molestation, murder, all that nasty stuff) or other serious crime. I don't think that misdemeanors like trespassing, speeding tickets, jaywalking, glaring at little old ladies or even climbing a tree without permission in one's free time would qualify as violating the ISA ethics guidelines. #7 strikes me as a "cover your *ss " type of clause for the ISA to head off lawsuits directed at the the issuer of the CA (the ISA).

It would be a good question to put to the ISA though.
-moss


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Looking at the .pdf that Guy posted:


"7. Refrain from behavior or conduct that is clearly in violation of professional, ethical, or legal standards"

There appears to be discrepency between your opinion, and that organization's text.

Personally, I say lean toward the ethical, professional and law abiding.

Now, if the ISA intends for "legal standards" to just mean tree work related legal standards, that's different. And a clear written distinction would be handy if that's what they mean. It's possible I missed a clarification - post one if you find it somewhere.

As #7 sits as a sentence, it appears to include legal and ethical conduct beyond just the workplace. Which is really the optimum way to maintain a certification.

Seeing how this certification is not a government managed drivers license or something, there should be no need to cheapen it when there is the option for it to reflect good ethical character.

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In the simplest sense, it is entirely voluntary.


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I beg to differ this. Most companies now adays wont even look at you for a sales postion less you atleast have this toilet paper cert. Hell, most states, this is the only type of tree cert there is. With these states, the only thing they can do to keep John Holmes and his skill saw from bidding and doing city work. Is, to rely on this self proclaimed international arborist (made up fancy word) cert. With that being said the cert is now not a voluntary thing.
 
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I took a look at the code of ethics document. Item #7 is the most vague. "Refrain" sounds like a request to be "good" not a prohibition. Another poster hinted at the kind of legal issues that would be of concern outside of professional/business practice ethics. That would be "moral" violations (rape, molestation, murder, all that nasty stuff) or other serious crime. I don't think that misdemeanors like trespassing, speeding tickets, jaywalking, glaring at little old ladies or even climbing a tree without permission in one's free time would qualify as violating the ISA ethics guidelines. #7 strikes me as a "cover your *ss " type of clause for the ISA to head off lawsuits directed at the the issuer of the CA (the ISA).

It would be a good question to put to the ISA though.
-moss

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Know how to tell how moral or immoral people are?

Look at where they draw the line in the sand.

There are 3 basic places to draw the line:

1. Support all reasonable laws and morals.

2. Ignore them all.

3. Draw a line somewhere in the middle.

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In the simplest sense, it is entirely voluntary.


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I beg to differ this. Most companies now adays wont even look at you for a sales postion less you atleast have this toilet paper cert. Hell, most states, this is the only type of tree cert there is. With these states, the only thing they can do to keep John Holmes and his skill saw from bidding and doing city work. Is, to rely on this self proclaimed international arborist (made up fancy word) cert. With that being said the cert is now not a voluntary thing.

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Your post does not sound very convincing.

What other kind of certification would even be needed?

If someone can't pass the ISA certification exam, I'm not sure why they would be worth hiring anyway.

It's not that hard to get, and the experience requirements are not too stiff.

If customers want more, they can still ask for more. But the ISA certification bar sure ain't set too high.

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Your post does not sound very convincing.

What other kind of certification would even be needed?

If someone can't pass the ISA certification exam, I'm not sure why they would be worth hiring anyway.

It's not that hard to get, and the experience requirements are not too stiff.

If customers want more, they can still ask for more. But the ISA certification bar sure ain't set too high.

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I understand this dingle berry. What I'm saying is the common joke cert the ISA offers is getting to the point it is not voluntary you almost need it now to get a job. I know any bafoon can get a 60% and pass the test, maybe thats the prob, CA's only know half of what they do and none of what they talk about. Seems the states with private Cert testing have better overall companies around. Even the hacks in those states are better then some of the cert companies in others.
 
Well considering some of the worst butchers I know are CA's, I would agree that the ISA's standards bar is pretty low.

These guys know their crews do sub-par work everyday, but production quotas being met puts more money in their pockets.

This is a low wage race to the bottom of the mediocrity barrel for the entire industry in my opinion.

The best work in my area gets done by small companies with loyal client bases that could care less about the ISA. Quality work speaks for itself.

jomoco
 
Most of the best tree work in our area is ISA certified tree work.

Good tree work without a certification these days, in this neck of the woods, is really selfish in nature.

The best tree work here, is both good and certified. Because the work is done right, plus a sacrifice to help strengthen the industry is taken care of too.

So those whining excuses won't hold much water in the Seattle or Portland areas.

You're not certified is my guess. Or, have not invented a way to promote certification positively yet.

If someone can't figure out how to put the certification to good use, and promote it in a favorable light, they have a long ways to go.
 
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Most of the best tree work in our area is ISA certified tree work.

Good tree work without a certification these days, in this neck of the woods, is really selfish in nature.

The best tree work here, is both good and certified. Because the work is done right, plus a sacrifice to help strengthen the industry is taken care of too.

So those whining excuses won't hold much water in the Seattle or Portland areas.

You're not certified is my guess.

If someone can't figure out how to put the certification to good use, and promote it in a favorable light, they have a long ways to go.

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I've worked in Seattle and seen the crews there spiking every dang conifer they wind trim, basically cutting every other lateral off the tree.

I wasn't impressed.

The company was evergreen, ring any bells?

jomoco
 
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Most of the best tree work in our area is ISA certified tree work.

Good tree work without a certification these days, in this neck of the woods, is really selfish in nature.

The best tree work here, is both good and certified. Because the work is done right, plus a sacrifice to help strengthen the industry is taken care of too.

So those whining excuses won't hold much water in the Seattle or Portland areas.

You're not certified is my guess.

If someone can't figure out how to put the certification to good use, and promote it in a favorable light, they have a long ways to go.

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I've worked in Seattle and seen the crews there spiking every dang conifer they wind trim, basically cutting every other lateral off the tree.

I wasn't impressed.

The company was evergreen, ring any bells?

jomoco

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Only one example? What year?

When we look at all the names and who is and is not certified - certification wins hands down.

I'm not looking at one name out this way - but everybody.

One of few non-certified guys in our suburb, laddered his way up to hide his spike marks. Whereas SEVERAL certified companies climb rather than spike.

I passed one other non-certified outfit in our neighborhood yesterday. Using a power pruner overhead with no safety glasses.

Not every outfit fits the mold here, but the trend is overwhelmingly that the ISA arborists clean the clocks of the non-certified tree services.
 
The beginning of 08, right after the big storm.

I split from the ISA in the late 90's and let all my certifications expire on purpose. The ISA is great for luxury vacations in Hawaii for the owners and management.

But they do very little for labor other than look the other way each time someone gets chipped alive.

jomoco
 
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The beginning of 08, right after the big storm.

I split from the ISA in the late 90's and let all my certifications expire on purpose. The ISA is great for luxury vacations in Hawaii for the owners and management.

But they do very little for labor other than look the other way each time someone gets chipped alive.

jomoco

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Since when is day to day on the job safety the ISA's job?

If I hack my leg with a chainsaw - how's ISA responsible for that?

Sounds like you throw around a lot of blame that the ISA is not responsible for.
 
Unfortunately I get far more involved in these grisly chipper fatalities than I'd like.

You obviously have no idea that mechanisms like chipper safety gates were submitted to all the chipper manufacturers in 95 and again by peter mather in 2000.

It's a truly sordid story about greed and limited liability that goes on to this very day, and the ISA and TCIA are up to their elbows in it.

It ticked me off then, and it ticks me off now.

It's a huge stain on our entire industry that will only get worse until these so called authorities do their jobs.

Ethics? Yeah right.

jomoco
 
I see on the one hand complaints about practices less than acceptable by members of the ISA, then on the other complaints that the ISA is now putting in place a mechanism that actually puts some teeth to the standards that a CA is supposed to live up to. In some instances they are matters that really are covered by OSHA which is a another ineffective body where Arboriculture is concerned.

All that aside what should we do about this? How about a Treebuzz sponsored petition to have an open discussion about the code of ethics and how it will be upheld or enforced? The ISA annual conference is coming up in July. This would be a prefect time to hold such a forum.

Well?
 
I'd love to have a face to face with the ISA and TCIA, though I doubt they'd let me in the room.

It's a good ole boys network in my opinion, a corrupt one that's scared to bite the hand that feeds them, that would be morbark, vermeer, bandit and altech.

But I'd love to have a go at it.

jomoco
 
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Know how to tell how moral or immoral people are?

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The ISA can't be very interested in teasing out nuances of personal morality in regard to CA application status.
-moss
 
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I've worked in Seattle and seen the crews there spiking every dang conifer they wind trim, basically cutting every other lateral off the tree.

I wasn't impressed.

The company was evergreen, ring any bells?

jomoco

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Worse than their gaffing everything is their horrible work practices---sales done by ex- used car salesmen or whoever they can get----obnoxiously lion's tailed conifers all over town-- and much more.

AFAIK, they employ no cert arbs......but are far from the only firm up here that gaffs and does poor work, just the largest and worst.
 
thanks for the bump, roger.

I'd have to write about 10 pages of explanatory text if i followed that to the letter; 40 years of traffic tickets, for starters...

or i could nutshell it all onto a page, and tell them to go jump if they want every detail.

freaky. the cert dept needs to do some crown reduction and crown cleaning on that thing.

the BCMA ethics policy is 11 pages. i think the lawyer/composer was paid by the word. even that is not so extreme.
 
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Most of the best tree work in our area is ISA certified tree work.

Good tree work without a certification these days, in this neck of the woods, is really selfish in nature.

The best tree work here, is both good and certified. Because the work is done right, plus a sacrifice to help strengthen the industry is taken care of too.

So those whining excuses won't hold much water in the Seattle or Portland areas.

You're not certified is my guess. Or, have not invented a way to promote certification positively yet.

If someone can't figure out how to put the certification to good use, and promote it in a favorable light, they have a long ways to go.

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You missed the whole point of the post certed boy. It is brought to attention that the ISA is only a voluntary, should we say tree huggers club. So what gives an employer the right to lay cliam that one needs this crap paper cert to gain employment. Just so you understand, in some states Mass. NJ. MD. and such, your ISA Cert means nothing compared to the offical state one. I hope this explains better what I was saying. No I'm not ISA certed, cuase why would I waste my money and time on a paper I know holds very little value in my state. About the only thing that it's good for in NJ, is so the big companies can say that the idjit salesmen/women they have passed some test. Plus I'd not really go around bragging I had a paper I only needed to know 60% of the info to pass.
 
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