Is there such a thing as "organic" tree care?

Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

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Banjo, Did not mean to offend, but maybe it was unavoidable in your case...

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Judgmental still, now its specific, not general.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Two points I have learned from this thread:
1. It would appear that the label "organic" does apply to plant health care in the sense of it being an approach to pest control and fertilization that does not use "synthetic" fertilizers. (This point was made by Starlet, Knowledgequest, Tom, Banjo and others.)

2. There is wide agreement that tree pruning and tree removal cannot likewise be labelled "organic".

These two points noted, I suppose that some certification process could be devised (or perhaps exists?) for companies wishing to publicly benefit from their private investment in biodiesel (more expensive), canola oil (bar chain oil substitute), and a range of things in addition. I have seen companies charge a premium to their customers for the benefit of these substitutions, much the same way customers don't much complain about paying premium prices for organic produce. But if companies are to benefit from this kind of price inflation, they must be truly held accountable to the high standards that they have set before themselves. High standards exist in the strict labelling requirements for Certified Organic produce and LEED certified buildings. The customer pays a premium for these things because they are costlier to produce(e.g., greater crop losses due to pest damage) that explain the high prices.

If companies are to benefit from their identification with "green" practices, for lack of a better word, then there should be some measure of accounting for these practices that sets them apart from the ordinary. There might be labelled a Green Certified Tree Service and it should have all of the high standards attached to the LEED certified building requirements--perhaps administered by TCIA. (Hell, I don't know, it might even exist)

just a voice of one seeking the light...
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

That would be a a great idea. Once the management of existing certifications is agreed upon and embraced (as in true industry self-enforcement) then we could raise the bar once more with a "green" certification.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

I think that probably the best a tree service could do, would be to obtain LEED certification for their business. It's not organic, but it does involve assessing how to provide their service while polluting the least, and utilizing a minimum of resources and it's a cross-discipline credential that's widely recognized.

Aside from that, it's as it always has been..."Caveat Emptor" If a service provider claims a credential and a consumer accepts that as part of their hiring decision without confirming the credential, they haven't done their own due diligence.

The solution is the same as well. Be active and vocal in your community. Speak at any gathering where people want to learn about trees, and tell them the truth. Become the regional authority on trees in your market area. The better informed people are, the more likely they are to want to appreciate and seek proper tree care.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Good thread; Cervi and I have seen landscapers tout themselves as Organic, all the while administering poison to root sprouts.

re LEED, Terrill Collier in Portland has a demo site for SSI, which will be part of the SCA tour at the ISA conference next July. mark your calendars!
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Excellent thread. I think we are getting too sensitive to perceived egos and slights. All input here on the actual topic has been good.

The "organic" goodness we all agree is good and wonderful pales in comparison to the fuel consumption that is used out of necessity in our work and much other work.

So, cynical though it may appear, and sad too, this rings true for me.

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My favorite quote used to be "Nothing grows organic vegetables like diesel fuel".


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I live in a place where quality organic produce must be trucked in most of the time, not locally grown. So, is it more responsible for me to eat this superior food with virtue or to prepare some 21st century version of pemmican for the winter...which would be a regionally appropriate response.

I am also sceptical of biofuels. Can anyone tell me why these are better for the environment than their fossil fuel equivalent? The annual rape of vast surfaces of quality agricultural land is being turned over to our fuel addiction. Never mind the original forest or rangelend that it may once have been.

I don't think biofuels are better. They are an environemntal disaster, except maybe (only maybe) those converted from secondary sources, not crops. Same way hydro damming is an environmental disaster in the world of electricity generation.

There is an environemntal cost to everything we do. And small steps like using canola oil, not using toxins etc are important, and I support these thinsg 100%. I think we should take every step we can.

I am not pro fossil fuel by the way. Environmental disasters caused by fossil fuel consumption are horrendous as well, maybe evn worse.

But none of us should imagine we are 'helping' the planet in any way that should allow us to go to bed at night feeling like we have saved the world.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Decry the use of cropland for fuels but support canola for lubricants?

It is a very complex issue. I think Mario hit the nail on the head, and many other excellent point have been made. Organic means such a range of things, it is hard to understand exactly what is meant. As to organic certified produce, I believe it can be a misnomer. The products used for IPM of many of the 'organic certified' orchards and vineyard here in the Okanagan are equally or more toxic than their non-organic counterparts.

It is simply a word which makes people feel better about their consumption, but it is most likely a marketing strategy driven to greater profitability rather than any altruistic goal of environmental responsibility.

With regards to the use of the term 'organic' by landscape or tree companies, I believe its simply a marketing tool. If you don't buy into it, then don't use it. Just like using Facebook. Is there an altruistic goal by the use of the word organic in product labelling anyway? Not in my books, just a bandwagon marketing strategy that has permeated our culture. Consider all the petroleum based cosmetic products that slap 'natural' and 'organic' on the product container, paint it green, and the consumer pats themself on the back.

We need to be able to qualify the environmental impacts in economic terms in order to measure the efficacy of either fossil fuels vs. biofuels, organic vs. non-organic.

I would say, on the surface, biofuels represent a sustainable resource which can be grown on cropland which already exists, whereas fossil fuels represent a dwindling resource which elicits a more obvious environmental damage. Considering that the cropland already existed, only is converted from food production to fuel (and lubricant) production. I would not say I am well read on ths subject, but I would say that there are obviously benefits and disadvantages to both. On the surface it would appear to me that biofuels represent a sustainable alternative to traditional fossil fuels. Read up on the use of sucrose based fuels in Brazil.

I note your point about the original nature of the cropland, which was most likely ecologically valuable prior to conversion to farmland. Look at the situation with Lake Winnipeg, for example. But, again, this only points to the need to be able to measure, in economic terms, the value of the 'work' done by specific ecological environments. Consider the pipeline planned to run through the Great Bear Rainforest on the coast of BC. If there is no way to measure the economic value of the forest, it would seem that the economic benefit of pumping millions of barrels of crude would outweigh the unmeasured economic value of the land.

Wow...rant over, I'll take the cup of STFU now.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

The word "organic" is the darling term of greenwashers everywhere. Such as for marketers and PR types who are trying to make corporations look good in a way that is easy to do, and not costly for them. Like offering yet another cheapo product (re-usable grocery bags) and pretending they are custodians of the planet because of it.

Therefore, its quite easy to become cynical about the term.

I didn't reiterate the issue surrounding the word itself because we all understand that stuff here. We are a smart bunch.

I like to point out in my bugs/pests talks that to a chemist "orgnanic" refers to a chemcial with a carbon chain. And that synthetic organic pesticides are not necessarily worse than natural organic aka botanical pesticides.

The canola oil thing is small potatoes in my mind. The canola is already packaged for human consumption and if we use it in our saws instead and keep non biogenic oils out of our storm drains by doing, so much the better.

I am cynical about "sustainable" too. "Sustainable" has increasingly been used as a term equivalent to "environmentally responsible". But is it? It may or may not be, depending on the specific issue being discussed. Sustainable is just a way to try and figure out how we can live our excessive lifestyles endlessly.
It could be worse. When will we face planetary limits honestly?
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

I agree, fuel is a big issue with my tree care company.

I am the son of an Oil industry man. I have had a few conversations about bio-fuel with my dad and he see's the whole 'world hunger' aspect to crop based power. Hard to see as the answer.
Interesting, is his take on Oil (and also imported oil) - He would tell me that Petroleum is the most effiecient material for modern power. Cheap, accesible, second to none in ease from production to product. Has built nation states into rich countries...
Power is a strange thing... even gasoline.

p.s. - I really like the LEED direction of this conversation. GUY - more on Collier in Portland?
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Word.

I didn't mean to offend by rehashing the organic argument. Not implying you don't know what you're talking about, Nora, and certainly not implying that folks here need a lesson. The folks that post aren't the only ones that read the posts, however.

Just listened to Paul Martin talk about being more honest about the environmental cost of our economic activities on the CBC last night. It was old hat, but made me think about the idea of true cost economics. The idea is to collect data sets which measure the social and enviromental costs of our economic activities, in order that our planetary limits are better understood. What are your thoughts?

Sustainability, if only measured by GDP (economic activity), is limited in that it doesn't necessarily take into account the social and environmental cost of said economic activity.

The bio-oil Stihl puts out, IME, is more effective than the canola oil for production use. I tried canola oil for a month this summer, and 2 tips on the 357's I was running went when slashing for a utility crew. Switched back to bioplus and didn't have a problem losing bar tips. Anecdotal for sure, and really just minutiae.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

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I am cynical about "sustainable" too. "Sustainable" has increasingly been used as a term equivalent to "environmentally responsible". But is it? It may or may not be, depending on the specific issue being discussed. Sustainable is just a way to try and figure out how we can live our excessive lifestyles endlessly.

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Nora, in my mind (muhahahaha!), the word sustainable when referring to plants, trees, and practices around them, means "able to survive/thrive with the least amount of human intervention/energy."

For example, planting a tree that will ultimately require assistance or environmental modifications to thrive is an 'unsustainable' practice.

Planting a tree that will thrive in the conditions present with as little intervention as possible is 'sustainable.'

The same would apply for agriculture or farming. Growing something that will need to be fertilized or sprayed as opposed to something that requires only minimal water and soil fertility.

I see most turfgrass in yards here in the Northeast as unsustainable. For starters, we have mainly acid soils, and most turfgrass requires the opposite. So it needs help. Lime. Extra water. Fertilizer. Weed control. Grub control. Etc. It's being grown in an environment that it doesn't necessarily thrive in, ie, unsustainable. It cannot sustain itself without outside help.

OK, I'll shut up now hahaha.

-Tom
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Not offended in the least Dylan! Expressing ourselves thoughtfully even where we do not completely aqree makes for a worthwhile and intelligent discussion of an important topic.

And yes Tom...the difference between sustainable for the planet and sustainable for us humans. Excellent point! These two concerns should be the same shouldn't they?
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Thanks, Nora for your balanced point of view. I often wonder how many gallons of petroleum go into the production of a gallon of canola oil, how many hectares of displaced forest to act as a larger carbon sink, etc. These kind of calculations lead one to the conclusion that all of us have, to some extent, dirty hands. The sanctimonious pretension that we can be perfectly green is laughable.

But, that having been said, I think there could be a value in all of the green practices people have enumerated. I just milled a log for a customer this morning and went through 2 fillings of bar chain oil in the MS 660. I kept thinking of how I need to reform my own practices!!!
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

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p.s. - I really like the LEED direction of this conversation. GUY - more on Collier in Portland?

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All I know is, Terrill offered to host SCA this year, so i googled this. Sounds to me like the real deal. I usually go to the AREA research talks but this year may be different.
http://www.sustainablesites.org/pilot_projects/

Collier Industrial Park
Clackamas, Oregon

Project Type: Commercial
Project Team: Terrill Collier

This project is located on an existing, 4-acre industrial park where sustainable landscape practices have already been implemented, such as removal of invasive plants, directing parking lot stormwater to bio-swales, and retrofitting an irrigation system to drip to reduce water usage. Additional sustainable strategies will include an integrated pest management program, biodiesel fuel use for vehicles, and habitat restoration for a stream bank on site. For more information on this project, click on the following articles: Collier Arbor Care chosen for Sustainable Sites Pilot Project, Program takes green emphasis to the outdoors, Three Oregon sites chosen for sustainable landscaping pilot and A More Sustainable Site.

On this topic, things in Australia were kinda funny re fads and trends. Organic is pretty big in the food market, and you would think that gluten was toxic the way products cost more if they had none in it...which looked funny to a guy who loves gluten steak!
tongue.gif
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

I was trying to stay out of this thread... but since we are name dropping here. Terrill, my dad, just gave a talk at TCIA about what it means to be a 'sustainable' business. We have done a lot of work at our business park to keep up with a growing demand for green businesses. Some of the features that our buildings can boast is two bio-swales which all run off from our parking lots go into to be bio filtered. Before these were put in run off would go into a creek that runs behind our buildings. We have installed solar panels to help offset our power usage, although here in the PNW the winter months we are still on the grid. Our sales staff rolls in luxury in sweet 40-50 mpg diesel jettas. We have installed on site fuel tanks to minimize driving to and from the gas station, productivity has also increased having that on site! The fuel tanks make it much easier to source where our bio fuel comes from. Next year at ISA I believe that we are doing the business tour, so come by and check out our shop. If you guys want I can see if Dad would want to weigh in on this subject too, this is one of the things he is really into.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

Logan,

Par excellence sine qua non! Wow. I'd love to visit when you guys get it all built. Did I hear that correctly that you run all on biodiesel? Is that B99 or what? Did you have to retrofit your trucks?
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

I think that we run a bio diesel blend so we didnt have to do too much extra to our trucks. We do have all this installed at the shop currently.

So here is my thoughts on sustainability. I feel this means that when we leave the world to our future generations with images of ourselves behind, for better or for worse. Micro-sustainability is a father teaching his craft to his son, sustaining his craft on the world. A homeowner planting their piece of land. Dumping all your old expired pesticides and paint in a hole you dug in the back. Even if we do nothing our image will be transcribed on the earth. Being sustainable isn't a choice, its a fact. To quote rush, "if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice!" How do you want to sustain you image on the world? as a planter? as a mentor? as a builder? not a new concept, but I think of things in terms of trees and crops, plant seeds for the future. It takes longer than overnight to grow an oak.
 
Re: Is there such a thing as \"organic\" tree care?

There is a tree service in my city that actually claims to be something like this. Basically they just don't use a chipper but they can't get around using power saws so how "green" is that? I have also heard that they have not been doing too well considering. I think the only organic tree care is when you visually evaluate a tree and the customer never has the work done lol
 
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