How would you prune this tree

[Reach]

You're doing a consultation but giving an estimate. Consults pay. Estimates are free.

Actually, in the true meaning of the word, you're not consulting though.

I didn't learn this until the end of my time doing sales. For an estimate the client knows what the want and tells us. We give a price. If we're educating then there is a charge. If the client wants our knowledge they pay for it. Our accountants and attorneys charge for their knowledge, why don't we?

I agree with that. And I would like to charge for those consultations, because that is what they are, and they should not be given for free. However, I am not a Certified Arborist, nor do I have a tree related degree, so I do not feel I can ethically charge a fee for my knowledge that way, though I am more qualified than most of the CAs in the area.

I’ve been considering taking the CA exam, I just haven’t because I don’t really have the time to keep it up, and don’t really need it, nobody in this area seems to care about it. I would be interested in some opinions though, as to whether I can ethically charge for my knowledge despite not having an official credential hanging on my wall.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I agree with that. And I would like to charge for those consultations, because that is what they are, and they should not be given for free. However, I am not a Certified Arborist, nor do I have a tree related degree, so I do not feel I can ethically charge a fee for my knowledge that way, though I am more qualified than most of the CAs in the area.

I’ve been considering taking the CA exam, I just haven’t because I don’t really have the time to keep it up, and don’t really need it, nobody in this area seems to care about it. I would be interested in some opinions though, as to whether I can ethically charge for my knowledge despite not having an official credential hanging on my wall.

I think you could absolutely charge if you wanted to. A credential may boost your credibility with some people, but alone by itself doesn’t necessarily make you a great arborist / tree worker. You just said yourself you are more qualified than most CA’s. And if you have a solid reputation for giving honest and good advice and doing great work, even better! One might even say that could potentially hold more weight then a piece of paper that says you are certified.

I think where it would be considered unethical is if someone asked if you were certified and you told them you were when you are not.

In my opinion, if someone asked you if you were certified when asking for a consultation depending what they were looking for you could tell them something like...

“I’m not certified but we have experience dealing with such and such and I would be happy to come out and give an opinion.”

Just because someone asks if you’re a certified arborist doesn’t mean they don’t still want your opinion if you are not. The reality is certified arborist could mean multiple different things. Different areas of expertise, etc.

I personally don’t assess / treat for diseases or insect issues. So if someone calls for that, I politely explain that it’s not something I do, and if possible refer them to someone who can.

Try to get as much info over the phone as you can to determine if it’s worth a trip, and if you think it’s out of your area of expertise be honest and or refer to someone else if possible.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Charge for your knowledge. Don't even worry that you're not a CA.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I would say there’s probably some companies out there charging quite a bit for health evaluations / consultations / certified arborist consults.

I remember having one person tell me that a company wanted over $100 I believe it was to perform a certified arborist consultation. I might be a little off but it was definitely more than say $25.

Or maybe you have a minimum fee for the first half hour / hour and then an additional fee for every half hour or hour you are on site.

I get the thought process behind it. Same as asking for a down payment on a job. Eliminates “tire kickers” and when someone is invested and serious they are less likely to waste your time and back out of a contract. Also more time on site than simply looking at a tree and giving a price to trim or remove.

If you do charge for a consult, something you could consider is telling the client that whatever your fee is will count towards the quote if they hire you to do whatever. Or not. Depends on you and your business. What your goal / reason is for charging a fee for consultations.

 

[Reach]

Charge for your knowledge. Don't even worry that you're not a CA.

Thank you, I appreciate that thought. @climbingmonkey24 Thank you to you also. I will have to figure out how to work that out, it would be nice to bill for the consultations that I do.

 

[southsoundtree]

$100 for a site visit is definitely reasonable.

 

[Neill]

I worked with a guy that was certified but was really a turf maintenance lawn jockey. He purposely had his information public to do consults for $100.
He asked me about a tree he wasn’t able to identify for a client and then said he just told them to cut it down anyway….

 

[southsoundtree]

Charging for consults puts you 'on the hook', from what I hear.

Errors and Omissions insurance is a protection, from what I hear.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I worked with a guy that was certified but was really a turf maintenance lawn jockey. He purposely had his information public to do consults for $100.
He asked me about a tree he wasn’t able to identify for a client and then said he just told them to cut it down anyway….

I’ve had clients call before stating that they were looking for an assessment to determine if a tree was healthy enough to be kept and what should be done to preserve it, and how they’ve had other people look at it who just tell them it needs to come down when the tree actually doesn’t need to come down and the customer wants to save it.

Some companies just chasing removal jobs who don’t actually know what they’re looking for and just say “it needs to come down” and provide an estimate.

How many trees have been cut down because of that you think?

It’s a shame, and that’s poor business ethics in my opinion.

If you don’t have the knowledge to give an assessment, be honest and or refer the client to someone who can. Don’t just say it needs to be removed to try and get a job.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

Why were all the other companies wrong and you were right?

Are you writing reports to the effect the trees are safe or just saying it to them on the day?

Or is this yet another mini-novel with you as the hero and other firms as the villain?

 

[climbingmonkey24]

Why were all the other companies wrong and you were right?

Are you writing reports to the effect the trees are safe or just saying it to them on the day?

Or is this yet another mini-novel with you as the hero and other firms as the villain?

Mick, do you think you’re the only one here who is qualified to have an opinion or has any knowledge on tree care?

I don’t understand what your problem is man. Why are you looking for an issue when there isn’t one? This is an open discussion and everyone is sharing their thoughts / opinions.

We’re you there? Did you talk to the customer and hear the conversation? See the tree?

I’m not implying that I’m right and everyone else is wrong. On the contrary actually, hence why I ask for people’s input / advice on here.

But when a customer tells me that someone else walks on the property, barely looks at the tree and just says it has to come down, when clearly it’s healthy, has great foliage, etc. don’t you think that’s an issue when the customer is trying to save it? Maybe that kind of thing doesn’t happen out in France, but in the US it does. Ask any other poster here and they will likely tell you about “companies” in their area using shady practices, etc.

If I had said I recommended to remove it and everyone else said to save it, you’d probably be questioning that as well and tell me I’m wrong.

For the last 3-4 pages the majority of your responses to multiple people have been negative or sarcastic. There’s no reason for it. This is a tree forum. We are all here because we are passionate about trees, climbing, tree work, and wanting to learn from each other.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

Thank you, I appreciate that thought. @climbingmonkey24 Thank you to you also. I will have to figure out how to work that out, it would be nice to bill for the consultations that I do.

One thing to keep in mind when charging for a consult is the potential loss of some clients who turn away especially if there are other companies offering consults for free. As you said, some people go where the price is low and not necessarily where the quality or customer service is highest.

Maybe that’s not necessarily a bad thing, depending how busy you are.


In regards to what @southsoundtree mentioned about the liability, I think this could be true even if you weren’t charging. Personally when looking at a tree if they are concerned about the house or it causing damage, I always tell the customer that “even if a tree is healthy and in good condition you can’t say with certainty that a tree won’t fail in a storm, etc. and that the only way to eliminate risk entirely is to remove a tree.”

In other words wanting to make sure the customer understands that your “opinion” doesn’t translate to “the tree won’t fail and your house is perfectly safe under all types of conditions” because then if something happened they couldn’t come back and say, “so and so told me the tree was healthy and that it wouldn’t fail...”

The insurance seems like something worth looking into, especially if you are going to provide any type of written assessment.

 

[southsoundtree]

There are a lot of dishonesty and ignorance out there by providers.

Lots of fearful homeowners.

I see it mostly with 'remove it, it can't be saved' from companies.


Once, Evergreen Tree care said, 'it will be fine, keep it'. Likely they didn't have a crew to do it within the needs of the customer/ easier ways to make money. Easy to damage the "golf course" lawn septic system, etc, in a distant location.
I dismantle it, leaving a habitat snag. 42" across the last cut, the much narrower way.
After dismantling, I stand by my risk assessment.
(Bigleaf maple, rootzone damage, sloughing bark, significant decay, huge included- bark fork, heavy lean toward the main bedroom, remnant tree from clearing the forest for the house. Beautiful tree... significant risk).






I've successfully been through the (I don't remember the name from 10 years ago) USFS tree risk assessments for both developed and undeveloped sites (very similar to TRAQ) and was responsible for a lot of risk assessments at State Parks.
I have used a Resistograph a good bit, and assisted once with a tomograph- testing on a 7' dsh doug-fir, and Resistograph of the same at 140' (I received the benefit of working with the hired Consulting Arborist who received an ISA lifetime achievement award).




There is a lot of "when all you have is a hammer, everthing looks like a nail" companies.

End-weight reduction pruning and/ or supplemental support systems don't pay for big chippers and chip trucks.
Mulch and water doesn't pay for, nor keep removal crew working.

Those take good climbers and special skills beyond spurring up a main trunk and raining down tree parts.


I kill lots of trees.
I dismantle/fell lots of dead ones.

When asked to weigh in on risk, I commonly tell people not to worry so much, asking, "Remember that last Huge storm (slight pause) when most of the trees were fine, and most of the damaged ones were the 'usual suspects'?".
Takes people a minute to understand that, commonly.

The decision is the customer's. I try to inform.
Sometimes they hire me to remove or preserve. Occasionally, i just teach them to mulch and water.

I'm often asked at the end of the walk and talk if they owe me something for the visit. If it's the case, I tell them we didn't have an agreement of fee for service, it is their choice, and I'll be servicing the area for the next 15-20 years.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

I just think you bullshit a lot.

Mick, do you think you’re the only one here who is qualified to have an opinion or has any knowledge on tree care?

I don’t understand what your problem is man. Why are you looking for an issue when there isn’t one? This is an open discussion and everyone is sharing their thoughts / opinions.

We’re you there? Did you talk to the customer and hear the conversation? See the tree?

I’m not implying that I’m right and everyone else is wrong. On the contrary actually, hence why I ask for people’s input / advice on here.

But when a customer tells me that someone else walks on the property, barely looks at the tree and just says it has to come down, when clearly it’s healthy, has great foliage, etc. don’t you think that’s an issue when the customer is trying to save it? Maybe that kind of thing doesn’t happen out in France, but in the US it does. Ask any other poster here and they will likely tell you about “companies” in their area using shady practices, etc.

If I had said I recommended to remove it and everyone else said to save it, you’d probably be questioning that as well and tell me I’m wrong.

For the last 3-4 pages the majority of your responses to multiple people have been negative or sarcastic. There’s no reason for it. This is a tree forum. We are all here because we are passionate about trees, climbing, tree work, and wanting to learn from each other.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I just think you bullshit a lot.

I don’t know what gave you that idea. You’re the only one here who seems to have a problem dude...

In your response to many of my posts you’re giving me the third degree and acting as if you think I’m incompetent. You do it to other members as well. Just because someone’s opinion might differ from your own doesn’t mean they’re just bowing smoke.

A lot of my threads that I start is me seeking the input and advice from the many intelligent and great arborists on this forum and to engage in a productive discussion. So if you want to call that bullshitting, go ahead. But maybe don’t judge someone’s capabilities as an arborist just based off a couple posts on an Internet forum.

Have a good rest of your day Mick.

 

[islandarb]

I just think you bullshit a lot.

Mick that is a bit harsh. Read this whole thread. A lot of rolling around the bush. An arbs responsibility is to the trees, if they have a conscience. HO's generally know little about their trees, with a few exceptions. Personally I choose my clients, they do not choose me. I refuse to do anything the HO wants just for money. But my client's hire me to care for their trees, so I pretty much have free reign. My 2 cents.

 

[Rooted.Tree.Solutions]

$100 for a site visit is definitely reasonable.

I charge $200 just to come out for a consultation whether I’m there for 10 minutes or an hour. It’s another $200 if I’m there more than an hour or if they want an official write up of my findings.

I’m not ashamed to charge that much because I’ve spent the last 15 years studying my trade so that I can provide a service that’s valuable.

@Reach there's no reason that you shouldn’t charge for a consultation. Your experience is enough credibility.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I charge $200 just to come out for a consultation whether I’m there for 10 minutes or an hour. It’s another $200 if I’m there more than an hour or if they want an official write up of my findings.

I’m not ashamed to charge that much because I’ve spent the last 15 years studying my trade so that I can provide a service that’s valuable.

@Reach there's no reason that you shouldn’t charge for a consultation. Your experience is enough credibility.

I suppose it could depend on the location as well, but do you ever find you get a lot of people turning away and declining setting up an appointment because of charging a fee? Or people who set up an appointment but then don’t want to pay after the visit?

 

[Rooted.Tree.Solutions]

I suppose it could depend on the location as well, but do you ever find you get a lot of people turning away and declining setting up an appointment because of charging a fee? Or people who set up an appointment but then don’t want to pay after the visit?

Most of the people who contact me find me on the ISA website and are expecting to pay a fee. I still always have some who don’t want to pay which is fine. I communicate very clearly that if they just want me to quote work then I’ll do that for free. If they want me to give my opinion on their tree then I’m going there only for that purpose and I’m not expecting to sell any work.

I really don’t mind people turning me away because they don’t want to pay a fee. I’m not trying to serve everyone, if I don’t have boundaries I’ll run myself ragged trying to get everything done.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

Most of the people who contact me find me on the ISA website and are expecting to pay a fee. I still always have some who don’t want to pay which is fine. I communicate very clearly that if they just want me to quote work then I’ll do that for free. If they want me to give my opinion on their tree then I’m going there only for that purpose and I’m not expecting to sell any work.

I really don’t mind people turning me away because they don’t want to pay a fee. I’m not trying to serve everyone, if I don’t have boundaries I’ll run myself ragged trying to get everything done.

I see. I was wondering if quotes for work were included in the consultation part but I get what you’re saying. I’ve heard of some people charging just to give a quote as well, and was curious on the impact that could have on work flow and the number of quotes you give, etc.