How do we guild our craft?

Drewtree said:
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Sorry for vagueness - was pointing out that you were embracing the aforementioned term academia.

"Study, study, study" - is academia. Granted some College level may appear stale, once you get to Phd level, your study is self-regulated and dependent on your personal effort. Much alike your description of how to accelerate growth as an Arborist in the absence of Grade 12.

Back on point - one key facet of a Guild is the standardization of policy, conduct, practices etc., and the unified acceptance of these standards. A lofty goal indeed......
 
Sherwood7
Just realized I missed the point while pointing out other things a guild could address. Yes sherwood7, removal technique could be a part and safety. But I think we have mostly enough of that already. The point is that we don't have enough ways to 'work around' removal requests.


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Mangoes said:
...one key facet of a Guild is the standardization of policy, conduct, practices etc.
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If you've ever seen the amazing cathedrals, palaces, mosques, shrines, temples, government buildings and such built from the middle ages into fairly modern times... these were built to astounding standards, both structural and aesthetic, by trades guilds. Most (but certainly not all) of these tradesmen were from lower class, poorly educated sectors of society. The guilds gave them a good education (whether they were aware that they were getting one, or not) and a set of skills that could really only be aquired this way. Good technical colleges and trades schools in more modern times served this function, at least until they became a money making scheme with no realistic training and atrocious management practices.

The guild paradigm may appear archaic on the surface of things, something ressurected from the past, but with the direction that acadamia and the fallacy of private sector education is going, it may be the very best solution to fixing problems with the current model. If it is non-profit, maintains good transparency and holds itself to high standards... it could easily be a modern system that eschews the current systems that are entirely profit-driven and cater to a too small sector of society.

I think you guys are seriously wandering into something that encompasses politics and social reform... get ready to be called lefty, pinko, commie bastards. Any good idea that doesn't involve a very small number of people getting rich off of it, well... there will be naysayers and namecalling. But you have some great ideas flowing, and I really think you're onto something that holds a lot of promise.

Two cents worth, from the peanut gallery. :tanguero:
 
monkeylove said:
I started in high school at our local trade school. Since then they have gotten way smaller and offer less. Unfortunately you can't blame them really, less and less kids were going every year. The schools have become all about sending kids to college and whatever else the state pays them for. There is a huge gap in the trades industries between us old guys and the very few that are getting it them. I don't know when it became taboo to work with your hands but the world is in for a shock when there is nobody left to fix or build anything.
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Mangoes said:
Sorry for vagueness - was pointing out that you were embracing the aforementioned term academia.

"Study, study, study" - is academia. Granted some College level may appear stale, once you get to Phd level, your study is self-regulated and dependent on your personal effort. Much alike your description of how to accelerate growth as an Arborist in the absence of Grade 12.

Back on point - one key facet of a Guild is the standardization of policy, conduct, practices etc., and the unified acceptance of these standards. A lofty goal indeed......
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Ah I see now,

Yes I completely embrace academia, but not in a cookie cutter, one size fits all school setting sense. I have severe ADHD but have studied multiple subjects of interest to a university level on my own, at my own pace, with my own structure. I couldn't sit through a standardized written test to save my life.
 
Redtree said:
Sherwood7
Just realized I missed the point while pointing out other things a guild could address. Yes sherwood7, removal technique could be a part and safety. But I think we have mostly enough of that already. The point is that we don't have enough ways to 'work around' removal requests.


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For sure. Removals are def not the only technique to mitigate risks/hazards. I try and give the client all of the information, and recommend other options if a removal is not necessary to achieve the clients goals. After that if they decide to remove the tree or my experience tells me it is a hazard I will remove it and not give it a second thought. I feel that many trees are cut down that shouldn't be, but it seems that many are also retained that should be removed. I think u can make Great point for retaining trees, without implying that every hazard can be fixed without removal. A safety program can not afford to down play a large, skilled, and dangerous part of our profession.
 
Drew, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule but, that's what they are, exceptions. You fit that mold but others don't. What comes out of formal education is standardized basic learning outcomes. These are not the end but the means. They provide the learner with a foundation from which to grow. Can you imagine doctors or lawyers or any other professional not developing themselves beyond their education?

It also provides the employers with a standard by which they can assess a potential hire's skill level. There's some sort of foundation that they can say person "A" has this level of competence and ability to learn vs. person "B". While having learned on the job is valid there is no set standard to that (like a formal apprenticeship) by which one could assess your skills. That's not to say that it doesn't work. It's just relies on foreknowledge of those companies where the experience was gained.

As Mangoes pointed out, the notion is to create a standardized learning process that would lead to credentials that could be accepted anywhere. This is the point behind the "red seal" program in Canada. It means your apprenticeship is valid anywhere in Canada. Without it a certificate from one province would not necessarily be accepted in another.
 
Ryan yeah you got it.

" I feel that many trees are cut down that shouldn't be, but it seems that many are also retained that should be removed."

Can you post some examples? I would guess these are <1% of retentions, unless you count trees that were butchered for no good reason.

"I think u can make Great point for retaining trees, without implying that every hazard can be fixed without removal."

Hazard just means a risk that should be acted on. The question usually is, how much does load have to be reduced to compensate for structural issues? I heart a lot of exaggerations without science or practice behind them; just wild guesses really, and tilted toward fear rather than tree benefits. So again it's hard to come up with many scenarios that require removal to fix/mitigate/abate the hazard.

Disclaimer; my biz is geared for preservation work. Removals are rare for me; usually when I have a plan for the wood!
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man, reading this thread makes me wonder about how little the crew (salesman) I work with does to educate our customers about the reality of "hazardous" trees. We removed a tree today that probably wasn't going to suddenly roll over and crush the house below. I am not a very experienced arborist, but I know that trees don't just fall over without warning signs.
Perhaps a guild could prevent him from saying, "yes, ma'am, that tree should be cut down because its over your house."
Perhaps a guild could ensure my ability to say without hesitation, "no, this tree should stay."
I live in North Carolina where about a third of the urban forest is shaped like a lowercase 't' but with only 2 solid years professional experience I don't know where to start. I would love to consider myself a preservation arborist someday, but right now it feels like my only choice is who to butcher trees with. I certainly don't think I will be able to stop my boss from selling removals for the big bad scary trees.
I sure wish there was a guild to turn to...
 
guymayor said:
Ryan yeah you got it.

" I feel that many trees are cut down that shouldn't be, but it seems that many are also retained that should be removed."

Can you post some examples? I would guess these are <1% of retentions, unless you count trees that were butchered for no good reason.

"I think u can make Great point for retaining trees, without implying that every hazard can be fixed without removal."

Hazard just means a risk that should be acted on. The question usually is, how much does load have to be reduced to compensate for structural issues? I heart a lot of exaggerations without science or practice behind them; just wild guesses really, and tilted toward fear rather than tree benefits. So again it's hard to come up with many scenarios that require removal to fix/mitigate/abate the hazard.

Disclaimer; my biz is geared for preservation work. Removals are rare for me; usually when I have a plan for the wood!
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I am with you. I have learned a lot from ur posts and try to think first of how to retain something rather than remove it. When I say hazard I actually mean hazard. I am cert arb, traq, ctsp, 16 years exp. I can't agree with ur less than 1% statement, but nothing wrong with a good discussion.
 
I think 95 percent of risk trees that show vigour are retainable through mitigation.
Who's to blame for removing retainable trees? The educators lack of teaching preservation? Or the clients lack of awareness? Or the lack of by laws and enforcement? Or the lack of an owner showing the apprentice the technique of dealing with an inappropriate removal request? Or the apprentice sees the consultation or cutting and its "pro choice". We need to teach "pro life". These aren't embryos. If an invasive maple is just born, fine, replace it with a better species. But if it's big, plant under it and prune a window. Who teaches nurse trees?
I think that the apprenticeship program in ontario is probably great. But get these kids going on more than just climbing and spurring. It's one thing to have a good climber, but he needs to know how to use a saw AND a pole pruner. I'm sure many of you do. I just wonder if rookies think they are seeing a good example or an arboricultural example? And they're not?
Here's an idea. Start them in an apple orchard on the ground. With a pruner. not on a boulevard.
I have an apprentice who will be attending college in January. I try my best to show him the difference between production and preservation and that ultimately, preservation does produce the money, and sustainable money. Once he learns the climbing, I hope to start him full time pruning. I also show him that it's not always about fulfilling a client request, and clients often not only respect that, they appreciate that.
Is there a problem in the curriculum and the barriers to changing it? Mangoes , is it too short of a program? Or outdated? I saw two young guys the other day, probably both fresh out of college. And they weren't doing tree care or people care. Just wasting a bucket. Crown cleaning that looked like gutting.
I went through the system solo so I don't know for sure. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And I saw two guys posted while I was blabbing so sorry and please read their posts.


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Funny this thing about pole pruners. I learned initially to use a pole pruner/saw, then I was told that most cuts made with them can be done better by climbing to the cut and using a handsaw/chainsaw. I saw this firsthand in a large oak that was spec'd for a 1 meter crown reduction. It made more sense to get up there and make the cuts properly. What I found was, in fact, a lot of bad cuts made with polesaws/pruners. However, that all said there is a time and place for them as the right tool. That's the job of the educator and the employer in an apprenticeship model. In the field, to learn the how and in the class to learn the why.

Redtree, I took the course with Classictruckman with Mangoes as one of the instructors. It's built in the same way as every trade apprenticeship. Could it be longer? Of course, possibly adding a third semester of classes. If someone feels the need for further education in a formal setting there are longer programs ranging from full time community college to university level. Like many other trades though, we face a skilled trade shortage at the frontline. Thus the guild approach.
 
For me, growing and improving as a climber has so led to growth and better understanding of pruning. Being able to efficiently access more of the tree has helped me SEE the whole tree and of course to get to where the work needs to be done.
I'm not afraid of pole tools, but if I can't reach it from the ground, I'm going to try to get there first, before I get the ladder of the truck or stick 3 pokes together.
Just don't think we can downplay the importance of climbing either, and let's face it, most young punks just entering the industry, like myself not oh-so-long-ago, are totally taken by the spectacle of safely climbing giants.
 
I understand that pole pruner cuts can be dirty, but not nearly as dirty as a pole saw or pole chainsaw. if a 1/2 inch diameter, 6 inch long piece of die back falls from a tree, does it make a sound? Yes. Just barely, but the tree doesn't care, it's much easier to compartmentalize, free of invasive decay, than a clean cut 3" wound.
Secondly. I love my ladder, and I love to climb. And a climber with two or three pole sections can often be much more efficient, AND thorough, in big specimens. And there are often 1/2 inch cuts that are very crucial to a complete and thorough reduction. And no climber except for a squirrel with a handsaw can make some of these cuts without a pole.
I really think arborists can waste time trying to make 'correct' 1/2 inch and smaller cuts. Make the 1/2 inch to 3" cuts clean.
This post refers mostly to the trees that we often get called to. The medium to high risk, bowl of spaghetti, multi stem madness trees. Not the upright white oaks and structurally 'correct'.
In big trees I make small and medium cuts often thinking 'wow I'm glad I don't need to climb over to that' or 'if like to see a hand saw hero get to that one'


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" I am not a very experienced arborist, but I know that trees don't just fall over without warning signs. "
Nice post rope. Here's a newbie understanding this simple fact about warning signs, yet our industry's dominant instructors drill buttress roots and other atrocities, in order to educate their guesses about highness of risk. You can't get them to recognize the bio in biomechanics. rope, tell your salesman/boss how those trees could be cared for over their entire career, instead of getting whacked once.
I have yet to read "Imminent risk of failure" in a report where the tree really was.

5 days into a 7-day job on some vet water oaks which would be Impossible without my 7'-14' telescoping pole saw (even though I redirect routinely). And the ladder is very handy. Elitist climbers who do not want to use these tools may be more concerned with the vanity of the industrial athlete image than the purpose of tree care.
And it's hard for us who learned the ISA/A300 criteria based on the size of the remaining lateral and apical dominance and clearance pruning and other Arb 001 concepts to re-learn tree care from the preservationist point of view. It is like going from grapefruit to kumquats.
 
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I agree (just for the record) with (some of) what Guy wrote......re. utility of ladders and pole saws.
I'm concerned less with vanity and an elitist image than just being able to efficiently whack trees for as long as I can. ;)
 
For the record, there is much on an average work day that can't be accessed by climbing, and many cuts too fine for the handsaw. For these, give me the roof or the ladder and as many poles as you've got it. I certainly acknowledge that and am comfortable w it. Always trying to do the best work I can and what the tree needs, regardless of method.
I'm no elitist, I may be slightly vain, and the paradigm of the industrial athlete is most definitely something that draws me to this industry.
Anyway, sorry frash, anybody have any good suggestions on how to activejt guild our craft?
This is a much more productive thread than the one I started a couple years ago re a union!
 
I hear you JontreeHI. There seems to be a sub thread in this thread. But I assure you it is related as I believe we need to advocate for artisan arborists and beware of the temptation to over capitalize on the merchant part. Not that removal isn't 1/2 artisan at times, bucket or not.
I think it should be a rule of the guild that a pole pruner is in the truck. Exceptions are obvious.
Here's one I'd like to see done by hand. The only squirrel that might do it is the flying squirrel. So I'm making a reduction or a removal in the main tree. But I don't forget that I'm affecting a whole canopy, not just one tree. So I reach over with FOUR sections of silky hyauchi and common Marvin, and reduce the newly exposed extensions on the adjacent trees with 5-10 cuts. This is no wimpy task so start with 2-3 sections if your new.


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