History, ANSI and spike climbing

ATH said:
Also, remember, ANSI standards are just that...standards, not regulations. So unless a municipality adopts specific legislation making the standard a regulation, there isn't much they can do. There is nothing in ANSI A300 that makes organizations/municipalities/big companies/50-year old companies with a one-man show, etc... exempt from any "SHALL" statement.
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I think that is the nature of the exemption I was referring to. I can look it up if needed. I don't think it is pruning-specific - more global than that...
 
I used to get all worked up about this issue and crow as loud as possible on my soap box. At a certain point I just realized that everybody is doing the best that they can. Do you berate the ground guy that can't tie on a rope properly? No, you teach him how to do it. I would venture a guess that the highest volume of tree work done in this country is utility work and that a huge majority of that is done from spurs or buckets. If utility pruning was all done from ropes I don't think you all would like the corresponding rate hikes. I live off grid so can't be blamed for needing utilities.

If you are reading this or anything on Treebuzz or any industry publication you are part of an incredibly small minority in our industry. You treat tree work as something more than a 8-4 job where you just try to grind through and get to the next day and do it again. Good job. You care! You want to do things the best way possible! You buy gear and can use it on your jobsite! Most people in our industry don't and or can't! They show up to a job where they do things the exact same way that it was done when their dad and his dad did it and they do it to the same tree. And the trees somehow take it.

We can all parade around on our moral high horse crowing about how we are better, but when it really comes down to it we might realize that nobody but us cares. And what we thought was a beautiful steed we were sitting on (The ISA) is just a stick with a horses head stuck on it with piles and piles of dollar bills from companies who do poor practices in its feed trough.
 
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RyanCafferky said:
I used to get all worked up about this issue and crow as loud as possible on my soap box. At a certain point I just realized that everybody is doing the best that they can. Do you berate the ground guy that can't tie on a rope properly? No, you teach him how to do it. I would venture a guess that the highest volume of tree work done in this country is utility work and that a huge majority of that is done from spurs or buckets. If utility pruning was all done from ropes I don't think you all would like the corresponding rate hikes. I live off grid so can't be blamed for needing utilities.

If you are reading this or anything on Treebuzz or any industry publication you are part of an incredibly small minority in our industry. You treat tree work as something more than a 8-4 job where you just try to grind through and get to the next day and do it again. Good job. You care! You want to do things the best way possible! You buy gear and can use it on your jobsite! Most people in our industry don't and or can't! They show up to a job where they do things the exact same way that it was done when their dad and his dad did it and they do it to the same tree. And the trees somehow take it.

We can all parade around on our moral high horse crowing about how we are better, but when it really comes down to it we might realize that nobody but us cares. And what we thought was a beautiful steed we were sitting on (The ISA) is just a stick with a horses head stuck on it with piles and piles of dollar bills from companies who do poor practices in its feed trough.
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Ryan thanks for your thoughts. I’m not trying to change the world, and as I have stated before my community has a email chain program. I know the manager of it and his audience is large.
My thoughts have led me down a historical rabbit hole chasing the a300.
All I want to do is educate my community. When I first started here long before I was certified, most folks didn’t even know what an ‘Arborist’ was. Let alone a certified arborist. Years later, I don’t get asked if I’m certified (most everyone knows I am).
So as a pet project I want to put a one half page ‘ad’ together anonymously and see where it goes. The rabbit hole is that I want to confidently state that ‘climbing spikes were dissuaded from use back in 19xx in our industry. While there are exceptions written in, none of them are for maintaining the health of the tree’
 
@evo, instead of focusing on the rules and best practices of certified tree service, get to the heart of the matter and talk about research and experience on the harm that can come from the wounds created by climbing spikes. I am not a tree pro, but I assume there is some scholarly research on the subject.
 
RyanCafferky said:
I used to get all worked up about this issue and crow as loud as possible on my soap box. At a certain point I just realized that everybody is doing the best that they can. Do you berate the ground guy that can't tie on a rope properly? No, you teach him how to do it. I would venture a guess that the highest volume of tree work done in this country is utility work and that a huge majority of that is done from spurs or buckets. If utility pruning was all done from ropes I don't think you all would like the corresponding rate hikes. I live off grid so can't be blamed for needing utilities.

If you are reading this or anything on Treebuzz or any industry publication you are part of an incredibly small minority in our industry. You treat tree work as something more than a 8-4 job where you just try to grind through and get to the next day and do it again. Good job. You care! You want to do things the best way possible! You buy gear and can use it on your jobsite! Most people in our industry don't and or can't! They show up to a job where they do things the exact same way that it was done when their dad and his dad did it and they do it to the same tree. And the trees somehow take it.

We can all parade around on our moral high horse crowing about how we are better, but when it really comes down to it we might realize that nobody but us cares. And what we thought was a beautiful steed we were sitting on (The ISA) is just a stick with a horses head stuck on it with piles and piles of dollar bills from companies who do poor practices in its feed trough.
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All six available emojis apply... how could you do that to me?! :LOL:
 
misfit said:
@evo, instead of focusing on the rules and best practices of certified tree service, get to the heart of the matter and talk about research and experience on the harm that can come from the wounds created by climbing spikes. I am not a tree pro, but I assume there is some scholarly research on the subject.
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Thanks, and this is only one part of what I want to say. I'm not leaning on that, and I have ample photos, and even dissections of spike wounds that I will include.
 
Jehinten said:
Similar situation here with our personal trees when they came in the clear the powerlines.

We asked that they not spike our trees and the climber said it the only way he knew how to climb. Talked with the supervisor and they brought in another climber.

Interesting gear setup, watching them climb. 1/4" poly rope (hardware store yellow 3-strand) for a throwline that gets stored by wrapping around a stick and hip thrusting with only about a 6" progress on each thrust. The climber seemed a little frustrated while aloft and ended up cutting his rope with his tophandle below his Blake's hitch.
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How does one get to that point of mediocrity
 
Some companies tell customers and employees that spurless pruning is too expensive. Evergreen Tree "Care" I believe.

The customer who told me this has a very expensive waterfront home. I asked him if the company decided he can't afford proper tree care, or not. Asked if this sounds honest.
Mention I haven't had issues with spurless climbing in big trees at his property.
I don't want to drive a far as his place, anymore (I work within a few miles of home, largely these days).


Maybe it's too expensive if the company is aiming for an hourly rate, but doesn't have a climber worth a damn.

I came into tree work with about 15 years significant and diverse rock climbing experience.

5 years working at height is nothing.
 
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southsoundtree said:
Some companies tell customers and employees that spurless pruning is too expensive. Evergreen Tree "Care" I believe.

The customer who told me this has a very expensive waterfront home. I asked him if the company decided he can't afford proper tree care, or not. Asked if this sounds honest.
Mention I haven't had issues with spurless climbing in big trees at his property.
I don't want to drive a far as his place, anymore (I work within a few miles of home, largely these days).


Maybe it's too expensive if the company is aiming for an hourly rate, but doesn't have a climber worth a damn.

I came into tree work with about 15 years significant and diverse rock climbing experience.

5 years working at height is nothing.
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That company actually mandates their climbers to have to wear spikes. It’s in the fine print on their work contracts too
 
southsoundtree said:
Some companies tell customers and employees that spurless pruning is too expensive. Evergreen Tree "Care" I believe.

The customer who told me this has a very expensive waterfront home. I asked him if the company decided he can't afford proper tree care, or not. Asked if this sounds honest.
Mention I haven't had issues with spurless climbing in big trees at his property.
I don't want to drive a far as his place, anymore (I work within a few miles of home, largely these days).


Maybe it's too expensive if the company is aiming for an hourly rate, but doesn't have a climber worth a damn.

I came into tree work with about 15 years significant and diverse rock climbing experience.

5 years working at height is nothing.
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I don't really understand how it would be more expensive it's actually faster to srt most trees from my experience, even doing removals I usually strap my ascenders on over my gaffs srt up most of the way and gaff from there.
 
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Its more expensive if a company is sticking to $xxx per hour for the climber bidding and the climber sucks and takes twice as long. Oh, and that company is full of Ship. Very disreputable.
Lied to a customer about a maple that was a very technical removal with high risk to property damage, telling them the tree would grow back over the sections of dead wood with detached bark.



I'm astonished at how inefficiently many companies work.
Then I remember, I started tree climbing being super comfortable rock climbing, comfortable lead climbing on trad gear and having good rope management and gear organizing skills.

I think lots of people don't use throw lines well. Very skilled people have it in their tool boxes.
 
plenty of improper pruning without spikes too.

the guy who pruned the tree on the right probably thought he was doing a good job.

IMO, the ANSI pruning standards suck... they're years behind the Europeans, fail to mention long overextended horizontal limbs as a hazard, fail to emphasize the benefits of limb reduction on these limbs, and fail to emphasize the importance of not making large live cuts on the main stem.

lastI checked they still had the 3 point cut diagram included.

what a POS document

 
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